Stem Wood

[dogbrain]

Hi, this my first post on the DIY forum although I have been eagerly watching all the canoe builds over the past year. Thanks to all that have documented their canoe builds with pictures and descriptions. With everything I have learned here I am jumping in on my first canoe build, the Green Valley Kite. My question is specifically about the stems and wood species. There seems to be a debate on here and other forums that an external stem may add or may subtract from the structural integrity of the boat. Having said that, I am planning to go ahead and just use internal stems and wondered whether using cedar vs. ash stems would affect the structural integrity of the boat. I can envision running into a few rocks now and again, and possibly even a couple of hard knocks on occasion. I live 2 blocks from the upper Yellowstone River in Montana, so that is one of my primary paddling locations. So my question: Should I use cedar (which I've already milled) for the stems or set those aside and use ash? Thanks for any and all replies. Mark

 

[Alan Gage]

While there is some disagreement on this forum regarding stems vs stemless as far as I know it's mostly on aesthetic grounds and preferred building methods. You'll be fine with either one. Do whatever makes you happy. I'd have no problems using cedar and did so when I built with internal stems.

Welcome aboard and happy building. At least two of us here have built the Kite. A fine boat.

Alan

 

[memaquay]

I use cedar for both the inner and the outer. I used to use hardwood for the stems, but I don't think it really makes a difference.

 

[Iskweo]

The only issue with cedar is it is soft and doesnt grab screws very well, say for stem bands and such. Other than that, its fine. You can of course laminate them...that is what we do to make them easier to bend...and use different woods alternating them in layers. It looks pretty that way too if you have a light and then a dark strip.

Of course you dont Need an outer stem. We almost never use them on the wood canvas canoes. It just looks right on the strip builts though. Some people dont use any stems at all but i like to have some solid wood backing me up. Lots of rocks where we go.

If you already have the cedar cut, go ahead and use it.

 

[dogbrain]

Cedar it is! I'll save the ash for the seat and thwarts. I imagine some extra layers of glass will help out a bit more with rock abuse. Thanks for the replies.

 

[stripperguy]

Hi there Mr. brain,
When I built my Kite, I used an inner stem made of laminated cedar. And I only did that because the Kite stem is particularly wide, I generally build stemless.
Other than attaching some sore of stem band, I can see no reason for any hardwood, ever, it's just more weight.
Besides, the stems take a beating from abrasion mostly, and a layer or two of Dynel will help way more than a stiffer substrate.
I'm looking forward to seeing how your build progresses...and if you get stuck, just ask away, there are many here that enjoy helping.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Good advice on wood choices for stems.

I can personally vouch for stemless construction ! It is every bit as strong, and in my thinking stronger than stems !
It is also a lot less work !

Those that build with inner and outer stems are going for a traditional look.
I go for performance.

I know there is a difference in opinion out there. But I'll stick with stemless, and respect those that choose stems !

Jim

 

[dogbrain]

Thanks for all the responses. I feel like I've enrolled in the university of canoe building with you all as professors. Unlike following a book, this forum is wonderful for getting back and forth discussion on varying techniques. This makes it easier for a rookie woodworker like me to get into this than following a more rigid set of directions.

Yes, I had originally thought of stemless, but like Stripperguy said, the Kite was designed to have quite a wide stem which, according to Martin at Green Valley, would require altering a number of the forms to eliminate the stem altogether. For my first boat I thought it prudent to follow the directions more closely. Maybe when I build another boat I'll be comfortable with more experimentation.The Dynel looks like a good option since I intend to really use this canoe and aesthetics will take a back seat to function.

As far as my progress: I have built the strongback, have all the cedar and am in the process of replacing a bunch of parts on my bandsaw to cut the forms. I need to get over to Idaho and borrow some tools from my brother and it will be off to the races. This will be my full time job in March, so I plan to make a bit of progress during that time. I'll start another thread once I get started for real and show my progress.

Mark

 

[Alan Gage]

Yes, I had originally thought of stemless, but like Stripperguy said, the Kite was designed to have quite a wide stem which, according to Martin at Green Valley, would require altering a number of the forms to eliminate the stem altogether.

I built my Kite stemless. I honestly didn't have a clue what I was doing when I started. I didn't modify anything and it came out fine. If I remember correctly the plans for the stem forms had three different lines indicated; one for the finished hull, a cut line for using inner and outer stems, and a cut line for only using a single stem. I cut my forms at the line that indicated the finished hull for my stemless build. I probably should have cut it back a little farther but it worked out fine.

Alan