Solo camping and downwind sailing decked boat price?

[Guest]

Obscure enough description? Once-upon-a-time a tandem kayak? Now a solo decked canoe-able thing? The Plastic Kruger? A polyethylene abomination?

Yeah, yeah, call it what you want, it’s a custom solo-ized Pamlico 160-T, from before Wilderness Systems redesigned (and ruined) it.

P5010002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Well appointed with a downwind sail and utility thwart for sail mount or Scotty rod holder. With a sliding Phase 3 seat, raised to 6” high for single or double blade use. At a 30+ inch waterline it is still a very stable hull when paddled solo or sailed.

The usual outfitting; knee pads, heel pads, D-rings for floatation or gear, and sundry deck rigging. Comes with (junky) double blade and single blade paddles.

At 15’ 5” x 33” max beam (good luck loading it to sink it that far) and nearly 14” deep the soloized P-160 is a perfect big boy or big load gear hauler for open water tripping & sailing. With a contiguously rockered bottom and rudder it sails quite nimbly downwind, hands-free.

P5020013 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The Phase Three seats weighed nearly 11 lbs each; after removing one seat this is first boat I ever converted that lost weight. Excellent condition inside and out with (less than) normal bottom scratches.

If you want to put a big boy or hundreds of pounds of gear in a poly sailer this is the boat. 76lbs of pure polyethylene fun for someone younger and stronger.

More photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153467...57719089447442

It’s going on Craigslist soon, and I kinda have a figure in mind with the sail and paddles (compass and Scotty rod holder not included), but want to hear some opinions from the board.

What’s that Glenn? You’ll give me $59.95 and a 12 pack of Bud light if I promise to help you load and unload it on & off your racks every time?

Yeah, me too.

 

[dougd]

$12.50 and a 30 pack of Natural Ice! to take it off your hands. I ain't fussy!

 

[Will Derness]

My instincts would be in then $800-900 range. You have a sellers market, your unique outfitting, the sail. If you kept the original seats you could include them in should the new owner want to restore it to a tandem.

 

[yellowcanoe]

My instincts would be higher. You have just invented the poor mans Sea Wind.. And you know what those go for.

 

[Guest]

If you kept the original seats you could include them in should the new owner want to restore it to a tandem.

Thanks Willie, I actually have several Phase3 seats taking up space in the gear room. When I get an interested buyer I’ll offer to throw one in one the deal.

You have just invented the poor mans Sea Wind

One of the reasons I picked up the P160 was that the moniker “The Plastic Kruger” had been bandied about in describing them, and I don’t think those had the single blade-able raised seat, sail, and various modifications/improvements of this conversion.

 

[Will Derness]

My instincts would be higher. You have just invented the poor mans Sea Wind.. And you know what those go for.

I’m moved to agree with you. If a higher price doesn’t move it, you could rethink things

 

[Guest]

You have just invented the poor mans Sea Wind.. And you know what those go for.

Somebody told me there is a used Kruger for sale on Team Kruger facebook group for $9,500.

Let’s start the bidding there. Divided by ten. I Craigslisted it for $950.

If someone on Canoe Tripping had a waterfront place and didn’t need to haul it around roof racked I’d knock $50 off the price and throw in a storage cover. Now I just need to meet such a person.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The Klepper Kamerad man wasn't interested in it?

On edit: You might be able to increase it's market appeal by stating, if accurate, that it could also be repurposed as a tandem kayak or canoe with an additional seat.

 

[Guest]

The Kamerad buyer saw it, in for a tune up in my shop. Didn’t have room left on his racks, and seems most interested in rare/vintage composite tandem open-cockpit kayaks. It may be that the stiff, beefy glass or (heavier, stiffer still) woven roving construction on many of those early hulls better suits his schooner-ized sailing purposes.

Re-repurposing the P-160 to a tandem again would necessitate cutting out the utility thwart, which beyond handy sailing function serves to stiffen the cockpit, an area often flimsy on poly tandems and even on early glass & nylon tandem kayaks. The long Vagabond and Optima cockpits definitely benefit from that thwart, as does the P-160

Going back to tandem would also mean moving/reinstalling the relocated solo seat and rudder pedals, installing a second (heavy) Phase3 seat, which I have, etc, etc. All for, I believe, a lesser functional boat.

Prior to being solo-ized the other decked conversions sucked when paddled tandem, at least with another adult in the bow; a child or dog worked fine. I tried most of them in tandem adult guise before solo-izing them; the ’71 OT Sockeye (Sea Wimp) was the only one that worked well for my purposes as a two-adult tandem day cruiser, and even it is a far better solo.

Paddled adult tandem the cockpits were too crowded and gear storage was the under-deck space in the stern, and a smaller (in front of the bow paddler’s feet) space up front; insufficient storage room for my style of tandem tripping gear load, especially with creature comforts or a potable water load on tidal campers. As a dedicated day sailer I guess they work, as a multi-purpose hull, not so much.

For my purposes, converted to a solo for day paddling & sailing, and windy open water lake or bay camping with a gear load, those tandem-to-solo conversions are the ideal boat.

Well, the “ideal” would be a real sea kayak. A really big dang sea kayak, with monster hatches and room for a blue barrel, large dry bag, camp chair, thick sleeping pad, big tarp/couple poles and a small cooler.

No, no such thing? I’ll settle for an open cockpit tandem-to-solo conversion then.

 

[DaveO]

Krugers aren't being made anymore, and last I heard, used were going for something like 10x what this costs. This has got to be a perfect alternative Sea Wind option for lots of folks out there.

 

[Guest]

This has got to be a perfect alternative Sea Wind option for lots of folks out there.

It is that, but folks who appreciate the function of a decked tripper with sail are as rare as $900 Sea Winds

I got one response from Craigslist, and am reminded about why I have disliked selling boats there. The “buyer” wanted to arrange a test paddle, which is understandable, but also wanted to haggle price, and wanted this and that, without ever seeing or paddling the boat.

I got the feeling I’d meet him somewhere for a test paddle and he would lowball me further still. Not worth the hassle.

It may be a seller's market for some things, like cheap fixer-uppers and mid-range price canoes and kayaks in decent shape, e.g., $800 to $1500. But I don't think expensive stuff is selling any better than usual. Nor does odd or niche stuff ever sell to anyone other than the handful of fellow nichees.

Much as I hate to admit it when Glenn is correct, this is a specialty boat, a decked solo sailing tripper. Had I left it less a functional tandem kayak I think I could have sold it twice by now. I sold three tripping-outfitted RX tandem canoes a couple years ago, all via paddling boards, all with a week. Craigslist may be a better venue for fixer-uppers and more common stuff.

With the rudder, sail and other outfitting I think the asking price was fair, but I’m going to reduce it to $875, throw in a cockpit storage cover for in-camp tripping use (y’all know how I feel about the benefits of storage covers while in camp) and advertize it on some paddling boards.

P5060002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

If it doesn’t sell I’m not heartbroken and I have room on the racks. It is a fine sailing hull and excellent raised seat single-bladable decked tripper with 16” high decks, soloized to hold a massive amount of gear.

60L barrel with the seat slid fully back, lots of gear room left under the decks.

P5060001 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

dang, I’m taking myself into keeping it. We have 6 decked sailing trippers as it is, but the P160 is our only can’t-hurt-it poly loaner for a sailing trip a companion to use to use on a big lake or open tidal bay.

 

[Alan Gage]

I got one response from Craigslist, and am reminded about why I have disliked selling boats there. The “buyer” wanted to arrange a test paddle, which is understandable, but also wanted to haggle price, and wanted this and that, without ever seeing or paddling the boat.

Just to play devil's advocate I used to do the same thing when I was buying Craigslist canoes. It was often a 2-5 hour (one way) drive for me so I wanted to get a rough price worked out ahead of time. No sense driving 8 hours round trip just to find out the guy wouldn't budge from his $1000 asking price when I wasn't willing to pay more than $700. I basically wanted to get the negotiations worked out and the boat bought before I committed to the trip and told them the only reason I'd back out on the deal was if there was something unexpectedly wrong with the canoe they didn't disclose (most likely because they were unaware of it).

It always worked for me. Never showed up to an unpleasant surprise.

I know you're not on FB and have no desire to be but it might be worthwhile to have a friend list it there if you're so inclined. I'm sure there are still people looking and selling on Craigslist but the vast majority of everything seems to have migrated to FB Marketplace. Not that it isn't a PITA dealing with people there too.

Alan

 

[bark-eater]

You might want add links to your build threads in this forum to your craigslist listings. A little education can cut down on the toe kickers.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I've driven long, looooong, looooooooooooong, and loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong (10,000 miles) distances to buy boats from small vendors and private individuals.

After spending serious time convincing the seller I'm a serious buyer, I always then negotiate price over the phone before spending lots of money on gas, motels, campgrounds, meals, etc. I make it clear that I will buy for the negotiated price if I like the canoe after inspection and (usually but not always) a test paddle. I don't further haggle once there. If I don't like the canoe, I eat the travel costs and drive away. Rarely have I ever paid the asking or retail price for a new or used canoe.

But, to repeat, I attribute my success to first making the seller comfortable I'm a very serious buyer who knows at least as much, and possibly a lot more, about the boat at issue than the seller does. Telling the seller how much of a paddling hobbyist I've been, and for how long, and how many boats I've bought often does the trick. And, of course, telling them I'm a friend of Mike McCrea inevitably results in . . . .

 

[Guest]

Just to play devil's advocate I used to do the same thing when I was buying Craigslist canoes. It was often a 2-5 hour (one way) drive for me so I wanted to get a rough price worked out ahead of time.

I have driven from Maryland to South Carolina for a boat I really wanted, and that seller’s price was at the edge of what I wanted to pay. My general rule of thumb as a buyer is if the boat is within $100 of what I feel fair, I don’t dicker. I don’t expect that from buyers, but the guy interested in the Pamlico was local, and his approach just didn’t feel right from the get go.

I sold several boats on Craigslist years ago. OT Pathfinder, the buyer had to have a Pathfinder; his father and brother had Pathfinders they used as fishing canoes. And now me too. Sold a weird little hardshell SOT folder to a guy who had one, now had a girlfriend and had to have another because they both would fit inside his van.

Sold some other boats on Craigslist, and ended up twice trading straight-up because the buyer offered me a better-for-me canoe in trade; Sawyer Saber for a kevlar Northern Light, well used Old Town Camper for a pristine Mohawk Odyssey with factory float bags.

The soloized Pamlico is such a niche boat – decked, open water, big load sailing tripper – that if it doesn’t sell at $875 I’ll happily put it back on my racks as a loaner.