Another new guy looking for advice on first quality canoe

[TFin04]

***Edit- Updated "needs" post toward the end of page 2 after taking some of the advice here into account***


My experience paddling is about ten years with the cheapest 10' Kayak from the local sporting goods store. I used it mostly on lakes (and some on Lake Erie), and it was only ever an afternoon-fun machine.

Recently, I became interested in using a canoe to access public hunting land that isn't otherwise easy to get to. My hope is to have less competitions from hunters. I picked up a used Old Town Guide 147 off Craigslist and have been learning how to paddle. My wife and I used it on a river float for the 4th of July, and she had way more fun than I thought she would.

Given her interest, and my finding that the Guide is quite a bit of boat for my limited skills to solo well, I am shopping for another canoe. I am considering a few options:

- Buy a pack boat for myself, keep the Guide for tandem trips and for hunting.

- Buy a shorter tandem that is well suited for solo but big enough for my wife to join me when she wants.

- Possibly buy another higher quality kayak for my solo trips, but I am definitely more interested in the feel and romance of a canoe.

I understand the pack boat with a kayak paddle is quite efficient, but I wonder how much better it is compared to a good canoe with good technique? Am I going to be left in the dust if I solo a tandem canoe when some friends have basic kayaks? Am I going to have a bear of a time fighting wind and waves when a double paddle and kayak hull might be much easier?

The vast majority of my time (IE, all but maybe two or three times a year) is solo. I am comfortable doing my tripping with backpack gear if the boat has limited size/carry capacity. The water in my area is a mix of wide, slow (sometimes quite shallow) rivers mixed with some 2-4 square mile size lakes. My budget is around $1000, which I know might be a difficult starting point for a high quality boat.

I understand I will be limited to basically all used boats. I do find some Nova Craft models in fiberglass around $1000 new. I don't mind doing some repair and maintenance if required, but I do want a durable boat that can handle being scraped or drug over rocks from time to time.

Given my ramblings above, do you have advice on starting point of boat type or brand(s) to consider? Swift and Nova Craft have come up in my searches, and each are close enough of a drive that I could go pick one up if I had to.

I appreciate your time in reading the above and any advice you may have for me.

 

[sweeper]

First off it can't be 'Dust', on the water it would have to be "Smoke"

Look at some of the outfitters this fall, even the ones in Canada. Souris River does a delivery loop.

Welcome

 

[Magnus919]

First... welcome!

Second... what is it you're hunting? If you get a wee pack boat, packing out a deer might be a bit much extra mass to haul out combined with paddler, gun, and gear. This will be compounded with a kayak, by the way.

 

[frozentripper]

Welcome to the swamp, TF... you probably already know that a big advantage with canoes over kayaks is the ability to portage easily, so this may be valuable when you're accessing lands that aren't otherwise easily accessible. I agree with Magnus' comment that having enough room to hold all the gear needed is something to think about, esp in cold weather (while hunting?).

Right now Swift's Keewaydins are getting good reviews from the small solos to the larger tandems.... visiting one of the Swift dealerships for test-paddles could be time well spent.

Here's Charlie Wilson soloing a 16' Kee tandem and commenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqoiQPgGKVE

 

[stripperguy]

Mr TFin,
Welcome, you'll find much useful information here and many lifetimes worth of experiences...
Given your needs, a dedicated solo of sufficient length and volume would definitely suit you well.
Would a pack boat or traditional solo would be better for you? Best to test paddle a few and find out first hand.
$1,000 budget may get you a quality used solo, if you're lucky and quick on the draw! But, depending on your location, a used solo may be hard to find.

If you applied that budget to building your own solo canoe, you would surely get what you're looking for, and much, much more! And with plenty of $$$ leftover.
As long as you have someplace to build (even a borrowed space can work, if you don't wear out your welcome) and sufficient desire, it's a very realistic goal.
I am assuming you can walk upright, and I know you can form intelligent sentences, so you already have the requisite skills...all else can be learned.
Even a first time effort can produce a beautiful, useful boat that becomes a part of you...
There are many here that can virtually assist you, think of it as an online apprenticeship!

 

[TFin04]

Mr TFin,
Welcome, you'll find much useful information here and many lifetimes worth of experiences...
Given your needs, a dedicated solo of sufficient length and volume would definitely suit you well.
Would a pack boat or traditional solo would be better for you? Best to test paddle a few and find out first hand.
$1,000 budget may get you a quality used solo, if you're lucky and quick on the draw! But, depending on your location, a used solo may be hard to find.

If you applied that budget to building your own solo canoe, you would surely get what you're looking for, and much, much more! And with plenty of $$$ leftover.
As long as you have someplace to build (even a borrowed space can work, if you don't wear out your welcome) and sufficient desire, it's a very realistic goal.
I am assuming you can walk upright, and I know you can form intelligent sentences, so you already have the requisite skills...all else can be learned.
Even a first time effort can produce a beautiful, useful boat that becomes a part of you...
There are many here that can virtually assist you, think of it as an online apprenticeship!

Thanks, building a canoe is something I would like to do, but I have a number of other time draws right now, including an 11 month old little girl. I made a living in woodworking for a number of years, so the concept of self building is not new to me. Maybe down the road I can make the time.

For the other question- Deer hunting is my focus, but the solo canoe doesn't have to be for that. I could keep the Guide as a dedicated hunting boat. I dont forsee portaging as part of my hunting trips, but definitely part of my camping trips.

My thought is either a solo and keep the guide, or a small tandem and sell the guide. That may allow a few hundred more in budget to do it that way.

 

[TFin04]

First... welcome!

Second... what is it you're hunting? If you get a wee pack boat, packing out a deer might be a bit much extra mass to haul out combined with paddler, gun, and gear. This will be compounded with a kayak, by the way.

I just noticed your signature, what are your thoughts on the Next?

 

[Magnus919]

I just noticed your signature, what are your thoughts on the Next?

I've had the Next since Dec 2016. I am 6'2" and about 240 pounds. Most of my paddling is in flat water and slow moving water.

I was able to pick it up for a little over $900 out the door. It's a short boat at about 13 feet which makes it nice when I'm back in dense areas like blackwater millponds and swamps. But it's a lot of work to cover distance with. The high weight & short length means it's slow and takes a little work to keep straight.

It came in a bit above its advertised weight. If memory serves, I weighed mine in at 64 pounds.

The seat is amazingly comfortable. It's easy to dismiss it as a lawn chair by looking at it, but go ahead and sit in it and paddle all day. Once you get it dialed in, it's great. Between the seat and foot peg adjustments, I found I was able to get quite comfortable and trim out the weight distribution in the boat nicely.

Plenty of room to carry a few days worth of camping gear plus my dog (small dog... I have a miniature schnauzer).

My oldest daughter really fancies this boat. She likes kayaking but she likes to bring her miniature poodle with her. She's decided she likes the Next to give her the best of both worlds.

I've been thinking a lot about it lately. The weight sucks. I'm just going to put that out there. A 13 foot boat that weighs 64 pounds is crazy. I know spending $3,000 on a canoe sounded crazy to me before, but I spent twice that on an old motorcycle that is no better for adventuring than the canoe. So spending $3,000-$3,500 on a canoe that is super lightweight and fun to use should be a no-brainer. My plan got thrown off track due to some medical issues in the family but I think we're back on track now... I'm selling that motorcycle and buying "the last solo canoe I'll ever need" (until I can justify the next one hahaha). Once I've got enough $$$ put aside, I'm heading up to Placid Boatworks to try out the Rapid Fire. The Old Town Next will be kept in reserve for my kids.

Since you said you're near Lake Eerie, I don't know if there is anyone up that way on here that has a Next for you to try out. If you find yourself near Raleigh, you can certainly go for a spin in mine.

 

[Magnus919]

Thinking more about what you're doing, though... if you want to pack out a deer, and other more experienced people may disagree with me, I wonder if your interests would be better served by either a longer solo boat or a 15-16' tandem.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Welcome to the forum.

You don't provide sufficient relevant information for me to give specific boat advice. Therefore, I would advise your not getting another paddle craft until you have spent a few hundred hours paddling your Guide 147 solo with single blade paddles. You would do this from the bow seat facing backwards, eliminating if necessary the unnecessary backrest that some of these canoes have.

Get out of romantic dream mode and into practical practicing reality mode with your existing canoe.

Why do I recommend this?

Because I don't get the impression you have decided whether you really want to be a double blader or a single blader. If you want to remain a double blader why not just stick to decked kayaks, or undecked kayaks (called pack canoes), of a lighter and higher performance design than your inexpensive plastic rec kayak?

If you want to be a single blader, you have to decide (based usually on long experience) whether you primarily are a sit & switch paddler or a single-sided correction stroke paddler. Different solo canoes are often specifically designed for one of these two different single blade paddling styles. You also have to decide (also based on experience) whether you prefer paddling from a seated position or the kneeling position. Different solo canoes are often specifically designed for one of these two different paddling postures. Some canoes can accommodate both. Proficient switch paddlers all use bent shaft paddles and the vast majority sit. Single-sided correction stroke paddlers can use straight or bent paddles, and usually kneel but can also sit in the right type of canoe.

In sum, I don't get the impression that you have the single bladed paddling experience to even make these sort of initial decisions.

Further, I think you already own an adequate craft to test out single blading from the kneeling and sitting positions, experimenting with hit & switch paddling vs. the various single-sided corrections strokes, and trying out various straight and bent shaft paddles. You suggest getting a "shorter tandem" for your wife and yourself. At 14'-7" you already own about the shortest tandem imaginable, which is probably too short for serious tandem canoe tripping. Many popular solo canoes are longer than 14'-7", although much narrower. That's why I think you already own an adequate (though not ideal) craft to experiment with solo paddling until you decide on your postural and paddling technique preferences for single blade paddling. Again, I don't know, but that may involve some modifications to your bow seat so you can turn around on it.

Frankly, I haven't met many 10 year kayakers who transition into single blade canoeing. The transition is usually in the other direction: from single blading to double blading, canoes to kayaks.

If you want to buy a solo canoe without first having sorted out your postural and paddling technique preferences, I can only offer the general advice to get a hull that has been designed, and has the proper seat for, both seated and kneel paddling. Solo canoes with a centralized tractor seat are almost all designed for seated hit & switch paddling with bent shaft paddles. Canoes with centralized web or cane seats can usually be paddled sitting or kneeling, although some will feel very tippy when seated. Any used solo canoe with this type of seat in the 14'- 15.5' range, made of a relatively light composite material, would probably suit your novice needs.

Canoes are like boyfriends. You probably have to try out a few in order to decide which ones you like the best, and you don't have to marry them for life.

 

[DanG]

Pretty easy to solo a Grumman 17 with a double blade. It will probably be even faster than your pals in their kayaks unless they have sea kayaks.

 

[frozentripper]

Discount-priced canoes at NovaCraft's factory outlet in London, Ontario... a lot of prospectors in there along with some others, including the more durable TuffStuffs. Lots of paddlers swear by prospectors when canoetripping, the time-tested old reliable that still does it all through thick and thin, more or less, generally speaking. Prices are in Canadian dollars so if you're packing US greenbacks, convert for a price break.

https://www.londonspaddleshop.com/discounted-boats-2/

There is a video about a TuffStuff prospector getting the living daylights pounded out of it in a torture test, so expect it to last. Also with less relevance getting thrown off a tall building, still in a paddleable state afterwards.

 

[bcelect]

Sold----Welcome to Canoetripping, We will get you out of that Kayak and into something more suitable in no time.
How far are you from New Jersey?
There is an excellent deal on a kevlar Star Fire on Craigslist at the moment.
Sold in 9 hours.

 

[bcelect]

Here are the specs on the Star Fire by the present builder.Same design as the Bell.

 

[gumpus]

It does sound like you are not yet sure if you want to use a canoe or kayak paddle. If you paddle with a group in normal/average kayaks you'll be at a big disadvantage if you are solo in a tandem canoe.

If you want a high quality pack boat the Swifts are very nice but will not meet your budget.

If your wife enjoys your current tandem I suggest that you keep it and look for reasons to use it more, and shop for a solo canoe.

I used to live in SE Michigan. Good used boats definitely turn up. Right now there is a used Wenonah Vagabond on Ann Arbor craigslist for $600...and it is set up for sitting (not kneeling). That could be a very nice option for you...quite an upgrade from your 10 foot boat. If you can test paddle it that would be good. Or you can wait for other good solos to turn up. There are a lot of good boats that turn up between Madison WI and Finger Lakes NY...all within day trip distance for you.

If you tell this group your height and weight and what you plan to hunt, and whether you ever plan to kneel, that would help us provide more focused advice.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Just a caveat regarding Glenn's good advice...Given that the OT Guide 147 is a rather beamy short tandem, it will not be as easy to make it go straight with a single blade as a typical flat-water solo of the same length. Just keep that in mind as you're figuring out what you will like. And even if you can set it up to paddle facing the stern from the bow seat, you will probably do better with some ballast in the bow to level it out.

 

[TFin04]

Thanks guys, that's the type of direct advice I like. I admit that my experience is limited, which is why I'm trying to draw on the braintrust here.

My Guide has no back rests and I have been bow seat paddling it as much as I can.

I finally started to click with the J stroke single side paddling this weekend, although my feet and knees couldn't handle kneeling for very long. Not sure if that's just lack of experience. Sitting was very difficult because I couldnt keel over very well and felt very inefficient.

I am 31 years old, 5'10, about 175lbs and in decent shape. I hunt whitetail deer.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Kneeling will come. Make sure you have a non slip pad to kneel on. Work up to going a little longer each outing

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

my feet and knees couldn't handle kneeling for very long.

You need a foam cushion for your knees. The cheapest route is to buy a short roll of sleeping pad foam and cut it to fit.

As for your feet, you need to be able to flex them so the top of your foot is flat against the hull. You can't do that with most shoes or boots because they aren't flexible enough. Wetsuit neoprene slip-ons or short booties work well. You can also practice stretching your foot top tendon at home by sitting on your knees with your feet under you flat against the floor. You're young and flexible.

My cautionary advice was based on an assumption that you might spend $1000 on a dedicated solo canoe and get the wrong kind for the type of single stick paddling you end up preferring. That's because dedicated solo canoes are frequently tuned for one type of paddling or another. Of course, you could paddle a 16' tandem from the bow seat as many experienced paddlers do, especially in Canada. In that big a hull you can sit or kneel and use any type of paddle you want.

I solo paddled a Grumman tandem as a boy and experimented with every stroke I could think of. My first canoe as an adult was a 16' Mad River Explorer, to which I added a wide cane center seat for solo paddling. I paddled it on lakes, rivers and whitewater. I poled it. I put 2hp motor on it. I made a rowing rig for it. I used double paddles and all variety of single paddles, and taught myself heeled Canadian style paddling as well as hit & switch paddling with a bent shaft. After three years of that, I knew what I wanted for more high performance in whitewater and on flatwater, and have now accumulated 15 canoes and kayaks.

You could use a double paddle in any canoe. 25% of the paddlers on this site use a double blade some or all of the time, according to THIS POLL. However, single stick skills are very rewarding when you have mastered them, which takes a lot of practice. You can find many instructionals on YouTube that will help with solo single stick skills. My favorite remains Bill Mason's classic Solo Basic video, which shows almost all the single sided correction strokes:

https://www.nfb.ca/film/path_of_the_paddle_solo_basic/

 

[Steve in Idaho]

...and poling. Don't forget poling.

Your Guide can be poled pretty easily. Not as efficient or straight tracking as a longer tandem, but it'll do.