Where have all the whitewater canoes gone?

[MrPoling]

We've seen the shorter, cheaper, easier market take over a lot of canoe sales. It's easy to lament nice tandem canoes being replaced by pairs of crappy sit on tops. A generic tandem canoe works great for going to the lake, looking around, and fishing a little. As long as there is somewhere to store it.

But whitewater kayaks are a killer application for plastic. My old plastic creek boat has bounced off thousands of rocks. It was constantly launched off steep banks, rock slides, and pulled up rocky shores. There's no open canoe that could take that kind of abuse.

I love canoes, but kayaks work better in serious whitewater. You're
lower and more stable, and the double-bladed paddle means you don't have to switch your hands in the middle of a big drop. Plus self rescues are relatively easy in a kayak once you've learned. You flip your paddle the right way and you come up, with only a few drops of extra water in the boat. I know it's possible to roll an open boat, I've seen it done in the pool. But I don't think I've ever witnessed an open boat combat roll.

I have an Old Town Appalachian I prefer in up to class 3 white water. But in any river where a roll-less flip would lead to a bad swim I switch to the kayak.

 

[Idiot Savant]

I don't know what kind of cars (or canoes) you've been buying but the ones I've purchased have always been ready to drive (or paddle). Maybe not leather Recaro seats but they've always worked well enough.

Not sure what you needed to add to your canoe but being a kayak person you may have a different take on what a workable canoe is. Are you talking about a pack canoe configuration? And if you're talking about tie-downs for tripping and/or kneeling pads or foot braces or spray covers or lining loops, those aren't always needed or wanted by canoeists. Again, those can be added as options when you buy a canoe, and I'm sure most dealers would be able to provide them. I once purchased an expedition tandem canoe with all of those options and the dealer charged very little for the installation. It was worth it to pay a little extra since I was still working full time with a family. Being retired now I just do the work myself and save a little money.

First off, I wouldn't call myself a kayak person. I had canoes long before I had kayaks and I still have four canoes and love them.
Exactly my point about the car seats. Most people would want their cars to come with seats, wheels, etc.
I know, in places like the Boundary Waters, they don't do a lot to secure gear, but on a river, gear needs to be well secured it case of a capsize.
I attach padeyes to the gunnels and glue D-rings to the sides and bottom. The canoe needs painters and a way to secure the painters so they aren't dragging in the water etc.. I usually have to add a thwart. Not sure why many canoes don't come with enough thwarts. Then I have to drill a couple holes in the thwart in front of the stern or solo seat so I can have a bungee cord to hold my map down. Then I usually add some biners on the seats and thwarts for attaching things like water bottles, sunscreen, sponge. And, yes, lately I've been converting my solo canoes to pack style.
Go to a store that sells touring kayaks and take a good look at them. Except for painters (which you can tuck under the provided deck rigging), and a spray skirt (if you want one), everything you need is there and things you didn't know you need, and it has a super comfy seat.

 

[eckilson]

Cliff Jacobson just did a post on kayak vs canoe - more from a tripping perspective.

KAYAK OR CANOE--WHICH IS BEST FOR YOU?

Kayaks now outnumber canoes on almost every waterway. Why are theyso popular? Some years ago, I guided a group of teens on a canoe trip in Minnesota's Boundary Waters. As we rounded a point, a yellow kayak darted toward us. The paddler—a young woman in her twenties—flashed a smile, then poured...

www.cliffcanoe.com

For river tripping a canoe is definitely the boat for me, but I would also like to get out on the Maine Island Trail, and for that a sea kayak is probably the boat of choice.

Same is true in whitewater, especially as you move up to bigger water. The ability to roll and not come up full of water is a huge advantage that a kayaker has over an open boater like me.

Doesn't matter - I’m sticking with my canoe for whitewater and river tripping. I would like to do some sea kayak camping out on the ocean sometime as well.

 

[tketcham]

Most people would want their cars to come with seats, wheels, etc. I know, in places like the Boundary Waters, they don't do a lot to secure gear, but on a river, gear needs to be well secured it case of a capsize.

And, yes, lately I've been converting my solo canoes to pack style.

I think you may be blurring the line between standard features and extras, especially if a particular canoe isn't a whitewater or pack specific model. If the canoe you're talking about isn't, then most people may not want the extras you want and why should they have to pay for things they won't use. The point I was trying to make is that you could have purchased a canoe with all the features you wanted already installed but it would have been an extra cost, or in the case of a pack canoe, a different model. If those extras came standard, the cost of canoes would have to increase, unnecessarily in my opinion. To use your car analogy, canoe manufacturers and dealers offer packages with extra features, just like cars, so next time you can order a canoe with the extras or features you want and save yourself the trouble.

 

[MrPoling]

For whitewater tripping this kind of kayak is really compelling. It is a real whitewater design with a big rear hatch and foot braces designed to come out quickly access to the bow.

In this thing you could run lots of whitewater that would be difficult or impossible in a canoe. I did an open boat trip on the New River, but I had to take out above the gorge. It wouldn't be a big deal in this kayak.

DAGGER | Katana 10.4 Crossover Kayak | 9030376057

A crossover kayak that truly excels in any water. The Katana will take on rapids and glide through calm water‚ with plenty of room in the stern for gear and robust outfitting for everyday use. Reinforced hatches and a removable bow bulkhead offer unparalleled gear storage, while the drop skeg...

www.confluenceoutdoor.com

 

[TimG]

I think it’s coming back, just like the popularity of canoes in general, but to a smaller extent. I just took up whitewater canoeing only about five years ago, and in a solo canoe a year later at 40 years old.
As a kid, some of my friends were really good whitewater kayakers. One of them was even a rep for Dagger. But it never clicked with me and I always felt uncomfortable in a kayak, particularly in whitewater.
As an adult, a trip down the Grand Canyon really whet my appetite for the froth; more like soaked it! That’s all I wanted to do, but do it in a canoe. I bought a ‘91 Dagger Encore for cheap from a guy that was part of the old guard of the VT Paddlers club. He was 70 something and had recently switched to a ducky. That Encore spun like a top, but it taught me a lot about boat control, though I still have plenty to learn.

I’ve since upgraded to a modern polyethylene Blackfly Condor, but I’ve managed to convince a couple other canoe-nerd friends to join me and they’ve picked up an Old Town H2Pro, and just recently, a Dagger Rival for $5 from another retired VT Paddler board member that just wanted to see it get used. I think access to affordable boats is key to getting people involved and that certainly helped open the door for them.

This past weekend, much to my surprise, my fifteen year old daughter said she wanted to come with us. So, we did a fun local class II on a beautiful small stream where 1,000cfs was a nice high level. She’d only paddled easy class I rapids before and a little bit of play across the eddy lines, but she did great in the bow of our Dagger Dimension. She had a blast and wanted to catch every eddy and surf every wave! But, I’m sure she was the only one to go to school on Monday with that story in her pocket. Maybe in time she can convince her friends to try it with her. She knows an old man that’ll give her a heck of a deal on some classic whitewater boats.

 

[eckilson]

I think it’s coming back, just like the popularity of canoes in general, but to a smaller extent.

I don't see it so much around here. Then again, I am in the Ocean State where sea kayaks rule. Most people who buy open boats around here are outfitting them as pack boats and paddling with a double blade. I guess that counts.

Nice pictures, and it great to see your daughter out paddling. That is the way i started as well - in a tandem with my dad. Of my kids, my youngest was the only one who had any interest in paddling. She actually became a pretty good bow paddler before she decided to move on to a kayak. Here is me and my dad (1990) and me and my daughter (2007) in my Mohawk tandem:



I still love paddling that boat.

Old school solo boats are pretty easy to find. The better ones go quicker than the old barges. I gave my old Impluse to a friend. I but I kept my Encore. Rival is a nice fine.

I don't get up to VT very much - need to work on that.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Dagger Encore

Old Town H2Pro

Dagger Rival

Dagger Dimension

Tim, you are inundating me with nostalgic flashbacks to the 1980's and 1990's with your boat references and New England whitewater pictures. As to those pictures, what rivers are your first and second photos?

 

[tketcham]

DNF

 

[TimG]

I don't see it so much around here.

I guess I don’t see it much either, but maybe that’s because “it” is us! But probably because it’s only us. There isn’t much of the old guard left up here. But I’m doing my best to peak the next wave of interest in the old Jedi ways in a world of double bladed storm troopers.
Here’s a stolen picture of a Mohawk similar to yours (Nova? Blazer?) running Horseshoe Falls on the Mad River probably ten years ago, a good 4-5’ drop. I keep the photo to remind me of what was once possible, and can be again.

I believe Tony Shaw in the stern is still an active board member at VT Paddlers Club and may be one of the only other people out there paddling an open boat down the lower Mad. I know he’s still leading trips to the Hudson Gorge, but I should get ahold of him and see if he’s still paddling his Outrage. Unfortunately, the club has devolved into just an email chain of kayakers making plans to run class IV and Vs, sometimes a III.

 

[TimG]

what rivers are your first and second photos?

The first shot is of me in my green encore on the bottom rapid of the Lower Mad River, in Moretown, VT. A classic class III (IV) run.
The second shot is my friend Patrick in his H2Pro dropping into the Punch Bowl on the Upper Mad River, just upstream of the old MRC factory in Waitsfield. This is mostly a class II run through the more open, scenic Mad River Valley, but there are a couple technical drops like this as options. It’s a relaxing float when the Lower Mad is too high.
For the last two years, we’ve also run the Peavine Whitewater Race on the upper White River above Bethel, VT. That’s a beautiful river and a fun race that sees half a dozen or more canoes, including a local in his orange ME. Need to get there on time this year, so we can actually scout where the dry line is on Scarry Larry!

We still manage to place each year though. Hopefully, nobody takes up canoeing and crowds our division!

 

[eckilson]

I keep the photo to remind me of what was once possible, and can be again.

What is possible in a really old school canoe, but only if you wear a CCM hockey helmet and have a tire tube for floatation.

You've probably seen it, but I love that video - especially the guy that paddles around the corner at around 47:55.

I don't get up to VT very often - unless you count camping on the Connecticut River. I usually get up to Westfest - at least I did before COVID. Hopefully they will run the shuttle again this fall. I've paddled the lower section of the White a couple of times, but never the section above Bethel. I did a section of the Ottauquechee - pretty river. If you are looking for open boater company I'd love to join you on some of the easier stuff. Unfortunately, I'll be away the weekend of the Peavine Whitewater Race, or I would probably try it.

 

[TimG]

Oh yeah, I’ve watched all those Bill Mason films many, many times. As a camera nerd, I love how he used the compression of telephoto lenses to make rapids look even bigger and more stacked, but in that scene, those were some really big waves! And yet, the boats didn’t seem to ship a drop, mostly due to the skill of the Canadian ballet cast.

I’d love to meet up for a paddle sometime. I’d like to explore more of the White River and it’s tributaries, but I’m curious to try some of the rivers closer your way in Mass and southern NH. Let me know if you’re heading out and I’ll do the same.

 

[Jim Dodd]

At 73 ? I don't go looking for White water any more.
I do have one of the last Bell Nexus's to come out of the mold.
I trimmed it up, as a solo.
I have yet to put it into the water.

Oh, if I was 40 years younger !

Jim

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I do have one of the last Bell Nexus's to come out of the mold.

I didn't recall this canoe, so for anyone's info I found this review:

Boat Review: Bell Canoe Works' Nexus

We were just completing our registration forms for the 2005 North American Open Canoe Slalom Championships/U.S. Nationals when our Bell Canoe Works Nexus

paddlingmag.com

 

[eckilson]

I do have one of the last Bell Nexus's to come out of the mold.
I trimmed it up, as a solo.

My father had an XL-14 outfitted as a solo - he liked it.

Tandem paddled with a friend in his Caption a few years ago on the West River in VT. That was fun.

 

[TimG]

I do have one of the last Bell Nexus's to come out of the mold.

I remember seeing those unoutfitted, new old stock hulls listed on eBay for a steal ($500-800?) a few years ago and wished I could have made it out there to pick one up. I think ORC was cleaning house.
Sounds like a great boat. Bob Foote/David Yost collab? Sign me up! Similar to a Caption, set up as solo would be great for a larger paddler like myself and/or as a whitewater tripper. Did you set it up with a saddle or bench seat?

 

[Jim Dodd]

I remember seeing those unoutfitted, new old stock hulls listed on eBay for a steal ($500-800?) a few years ago and wished I could have made it out there to pick one up. I think ORC was cleaning house.
Sounds like a great boat. Bob Foote/David Yost collab? Sign me up! Similar to a Caption, set up as solo would be great for a larger paddler like myself and/or as a whitewater tripper. Did you set it up with a saddle or bench seat?

Yes, a friend went up to Lacross Wisc. at the OTC factory. and picked up three of the last six.

We were unable to get trim or decks. I was able to get a set of Aluminum Bell gunnels for mine.
I hung one of my wood, Snow shoe corded, bench seats.

I only have one pic. This was before I trimmed it out. I have store in my shed at my old place.
Need to get it out, and get more pics.

 

[TimG]

That’s awesome. Gotta love a brand new boat.
Though, considering your background, I’m surprised you didn’t make ash gunwales for it.

 

[Jim Dodd]

That’s awesome. Gotta love a brand new boat.
Though, considering your background, I’m surprised you didn’t make ash gunwales for it.

Ha ! This is my first Royalex canoe. But I have seen several trimmed with wood, that " cold cracked". I wasn't looking forward to having to loosen screws on wood trim, every Winter.
I did make wood thwarts, and a wood framed seat.
White water deserves aluminum, or plastic gunnels, mostly because of the expected abuse.

Jim