A History of David Yost's Solo Tripping Canoes by Charlie Wilson

[gumpus]

Good to hear because I am getting one. I paddle straight most of the time - getting from A to B, exercise, and doing some fishing.

You have nothing to worry about and could not have made a better choice.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Osprey is indeed quite wind and trim sensitive relative to many other solos in my experience.

One can have many variables (including different people) included in a study and still draw conclusions. It requires measuring the variables as you perform multiple trials. A standard analysis of variance (ANOVA) tells you the Main Effects and their level of statistical significance. Even Excel offers this basic statistical analysis. It's often critical to include multiple people in studies since biases within individuals are often a dominant factor (that's why "blind" studies are often done when possible).

An ANOVA is also part of standard Gage R&R and it will reveal what type of conclusions (if any) can be drawn from measurements. Your Peregrine may have been hogged, I don't know. In the engineering world if you make one or two measurements and claim "my boat was hogged by 1/2 inch" you'd have to answer some basic questions about your measurement system with supporting data to show that you have a capable and unbiased measurement system...or you could just use more defensible words like "I think mine might have been hogged based on one measurement we did".

I think it's inappropriate for you to insinuate that Dave's boats have any issue with manufacturing variability based on one piece of anecdotal information. I've owned 4 perfect Hemlocks and I see significantly more manufacturing variability in some of the well known higher volume brands although like you I don't have nearly enough data to draw any defensible conclusions about the variability of the dimensions of hulls across manufacturers or manufacturing techniques.

Why don't you ask others particularly CEW about the variability.. It was not one piece of anecdotal information. I find your remarks inappropriate. Its fine to have a favorite line of boats. There is a LONG history of dirty laundry and I will not begin to go there. And the laundry has many owners.. Get them all together at a Symposium.. We should go back on topic because none of the current Hemlocks are David Yost designs directly. You can find David at some canoe events and also LDC too. It gets interesting conversation for sure when you have four designers/ builders on site. One of my current favorite boats is an old Curtis Nomad which no longer can be built.. the mold was destroyed. ( DY says there are better evolutions now, but to me not better enough to sink more money in)

No one.. repeat no one builds perfect boats all the time. Most of the time imperfections don't matter. I liked the layup of my Peregrine.. in a fall in Temagami I had to throw it and it went down some 20 feet onto rocks. I was very glad it was OK

 

[kbobb]

You have nothing to worry about and could not have made a better choice.

Thanks Mr. Gumpus, I am likewise very confident in my decision. Sounds like you have a grasp of statistical analysis of data. I looked at as many reviews as I could find and most importantly paddled the canoe. Is there any way to PM you re: some specifics about your hemlock setups - I don't want to derail this thread.

 

[gumpus]

Why don't you ask others particularly CEW about the variability.. It was not one piece of anecdotal information. I find your remarks inappropriate. Its fine to have a favorite line of boats. There is a LONG history of dirty laundry and I will not begin to go there. And the laundry has many owners.. Get them all together at a Symposium.. We should go back on topic because none of the current Hemlocks are David Yost designs directly. You can find David at some canoe events and also LDC too. It gets interesting conversation for sure when you have four designers/ builders on site. One of my current favorite boats is an old Curtis Nomad which no longer can be built.. the mold was destroyed. ( DY says there are better evolutions now, but to me not better enough to sink more money in)

No one.. repeat no one builds perfect boats all the time. Most of the time imperfections don't matter. I liked the layup of my Peregrine.. in a fall in Temagami I had to throw it and it went down some 20 feet onto rocks. I was very glad it was OK

Agree that no one builds perfect boats. I think I would have needed a magnifying glass to find any little flaw worth talking about on my 4 Hemlocks because I don't remember the slightest disappointment on any of them. But that's just four boats.

Please don't take it personally but I may continue to challenge you and ask for
the background info behind some statements that you make. I had a career of technical data analysis and reporting and I can be pretty direct in trying to get to the substance behind conclusions and I'm also keenly interested in the available knowledge behind canoe topics like DY boats.

 

[gumpus]

Thanks Mr. Gumpus, I am likewise very confident in my decision. Sounds like you have a grasp of statistical analysis of data. I looked at as many reviews as I could find and most importantly paddled the canoe. Is there any way to PM you re: some specifics about your hemlock setups - I don't want to derail this thread.

Hi kbobb. I think I just sent you a private message.

 

[deerfly]

kbobb fwiw, I'm not a technical paddler, mostly like that go straight guy YC referred too. I fish, hunt and camp with my Peregrine and nothing but impressed with it. Dave's hand layup looks vacuum bagged, light and tough, impeccable workmanship throughout. I bought it used from a member on this site several years ago.

found one of my posts with a few pics... https://www.canoetripping.net/threa...ave-you-been-paddling.97069/page-2#post-98901

 

[yellowcanoe]

Agree that no one builds perfect boats. I think I would have needed a magnifying glass to find any little flaw worth talking about on my 4 Hemlocks because I don't remember the slightest disappointment on any of them. But that's just four boats.

Please don't take it personally but I may continue to challenge you and ask for
the background info behind some statements that you make. I had a career of technical data analysis and reporting and I can be pretty direct in trying to get to the substance behind conclusions and I'm also keenly interested in the available knowledge behind canoe topics like DY boats.

That hogging in my Peregrine was brought to my attention by Charlie Wilson who had a lenght of string he used to illustrate the gap. On my own I wouldn't have thought of it. Did it affect my paddling ?
Maybe as it tracked harder than my Heron ( see the original list) and that more than my MerlinII which I managed to break in Temagami going over what turned out to be a waterfall.
Just wasn't my kind of boat and why it got that shape I don't know
LDC said a few years ago he didnt go to vacuum infusion as his shop is rural and airy. Expense may have been a concern too.
Anyway my ex canoe and I keep in touch as its gone to Azle TX when a friend moved there
LDC builds tough canoes when I had it I fell in Chiniguichi and threw it off. down a little cliff . No harm done

 

[pblanc]

Very interesting history. What about the Bell/Colden Flashfire, Wildfire, and Starfire?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Very interesting history. What about the Bell/Colden Flashfire, Wildfire, and Starfire?

Especially since Charlie speced and commissioned the Fire series.

I assume he would categorize the Starfire primarily as a tandem canoe, not a solo. Maybe he thinks the Flashfire is too short at 13' to be a solo tripper for the average person. But he does have some 14' canoes like the Wildfire in the history. Of course, as he said in his post, this was just a first draft and also that he excluded out of production canoes. The Fire series canoes, unfortunately, are all out of production now.

 

[eckilson]

I don't see mention of the Wildfire or Yellowstone Solo (RX and composite). Aren't those DY boats, or are they not considered trippers?

Never mind - I see the answer.

This is old - not sure how I stumbled on it this morning.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The Fire series canoes, unfortunately, are all out of production now.

This sentence, thankfully, is now no longer true. Swift currently has the Wildfire and Flashfire in commercial production and is refurbishing the Starfire mold to put it into commercial production in the near future.

 

[M Clemens]

First, Fourth and Fifth of DY's small class trippers, per CEW's analysis. The more contemporary hulls may be lighter and prettier, but the Vagabond is still my favorite.

 

[tketcham]

The more contemporary hulls may be lighter and prettier, but the Vagabond is still my favorite.

We have a Kestrel and really enjoy the canoe but I got to paddle a Vagabond at one of Dave's Tuesday Night paddles. I liked it a lot. It's similar to the Kestrel but appears to have a more rounded hull bottom so for me, seemed both faster and a bit more nimble than the Kestrel. I was very tempted to buy it but don't really need two solo tripping canoes so we're keeping the Kestrel.

 

[M Clemens]

We have a Kestrel and really enjoy the canoe but I got to paddle a Vagabond at one of Dave's Tuesday Night paddles. I liked it a lot. It's similar to the Kestrel but is an inch narrower and appears to have a more rounded hull bottom so for me, seemed both faster and a bit more nimble than the Kestrel. I was very tempted to buy it but don't really need two solo tripping canoes so we're keeping the Kestrel.

Not so much a need, really, but sometimes I have the opportunity to compare similar canoes over a longer period of time, just for the fun of it. I had a Merlin II and a Kestrel for a time as well. The Kestrel, farthest from DY's involvement in design, suited my tastes the least being a day-tripper only.

 

[tketcham]

The Kestrel seems to have been modified to provide a little more initial stability with a shallower arch but still keeps most of what makes the Vagabond work well. The Kestrel is a canoe my spouse feels comfortable using so she's happy on day trips and the Kestrel works fine for me as a multi-day tripping canoe. If I had more room, I'd probably own twice as many canoes as I do now.

 

[kona]

the Vagabond is still my favorite.

I’ve been eying the specs on the vagabond for years, mainly because of the symmetrical rocker profile, which I love so much in my wildfire and in a number of whitewater canoes I’ve enjoyed. Can you offer a comparison to the wild, which I’ve been using for multi day trips lately with a moderate load.

 

[M Clemens]

I’ve been eying the specs on the vagabond for years, mainly because of the symmetrical rocker profile, which I love so much in my wildfire and in a number of whitewater canoes I’ve enjoyed. Can you offer a comparison to the wild, which I’ve been using for multi day trips lately with a moderate load.

Regrettably, the only time I have spent in the Wildfire was at the WPSCA several years ago. It was a windy day on the pond and my impression was that the Wildfire was quite a handful in a stiff breeze, the downside to the extra depth. When the wind subsided, I found the Wildfire as fun and agile as everyone raves about. You would probably find the Vagabond less playful (unless heeled over) but a nice balance between tracking and agility and seemingly impervious to the wind.

 

[gumpus]

Long time ago I had a Kestrel and occasionally paddled a Vagabond that I stored for a friend. The Kestrel could handle my 275 pound load but the Vagabond couldn't. When I told Dave Curtis that I had 275 pounds in a Vagabond he thought that was funny.

One difference that could be my imagination is that although both were stubborn to turn at cruising speed the Vagabond could be freestyle paddled at very low speeds. I agree that both are much more windproof than a Wildfire.

 

[M Clemens]

Long time ago I had a Kestrel and occasionally paddled a Vagabond that I stored for a friend. The Kestrel could handle my 275 pound load but the Vagabond couldn't. When I told Dave Curtis that I had 275 pounds in a Vagabond he thought that was funny.

One difference that could be my imagination is that although both were stubborn to turn at cruising speed the Vagabond could be freestyle paddled at very low speeds. I agree that both are much more windproof than a Wildfire.

Interesting, since the specs for the two hulls are so close. Yet the spec sheet lists the Vagabond's capacity at 350 pounds and the Kestrel's at 300. CEW leaves a lot of nuggets floating about on the internet:

 

[tketcham]

Interesting that I find two max widths shown for the Kestrel depending on the source. It's currently listed as 27.5" max on the new Hemlock Canoes web site but I saved an older web page that showed 28.5" max width. I just measured my 2020 Hemlock Kestrel and it measures 28.5" max width.

Doh! See my retraction below...