Ha, I can't wait for the shout out SHIRTS AND SKINS! Tribalism can be fun sometimes. Sometimes.
-
Happy National Wildlife Day! 🦬🐟🦅
The efficiency of bent vs. straight shaft paddles
- Thread starter Glenn MacGrady
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 1,113
- Reaction score
- 1,063
If you look at Fig 7 in the file that Glenn linked below your post the simulations from varying blade angle from -30 degrees to +30 only impacted boat speed by about 3% (!) so maybe using a bent shaft backwards isn't as big a deal.as it seems. Regarding a more firm catch the top of page 3 shows that the paddle drag force that drives the boat is based on the angle of attack of the blade and is highest when the paddle blade is vertical.. so the catch may be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% stronger using a 12 degree bent backwards.
Maybe he just does it because he knows it pisses you off.
Maybe he just does it because he knows it pisses you off.
That is always a very real, maybe even likely, possibility
I certainly can’t go back now and tell him he might have a point, he’s insufferable when he thinks he’s right. Thankfully that’s a trait he didn’t pass on (and if you hear my wife snorting in the background I assure you it’s entirely unrelated)…
I tried it tonight. It was terribly uncomfortable. I might play around with it some more just to see if I can come up with a stroke that doesn't feel terrible but it was a much bigger difference than I expected.
6% decrease in boat speed at the same heart rate with a much higher perceived effort.
What happens when you paddle a bent shaft backwards?
I'd been thinking about trying it but after gumpus mentioned it too I had to give it a shot. If you look at Fig 7 in the file that Glenn linked below your post the simulations from varying blade angle from -30 degrees to +30 only impacted boat speed by about 3% (!) so maybe using a bent shaft...
www.canoetripping.net
Alan
With this thread topic in mind, I took three paddles of widely varying shapes on the NW CT trip last Sunday: a 48.5" (11 oz.) ZRE Power Surge 12° carbon outrigger bent shaft, a 58" (22 oz.) Bruce Smith straight butternut ottertail, and a 57" (19 oz.) Patrick Moore straight carbon Cue.
On a 4.75 hour paddle at a brisk (for me) recreational pace, I used each paddle about 1/3 of the time. This was not, obviously, a controlled scientific experiment, but rather a personal comparison experience.
The bent shaft ZRE was the most effective for me in terms of not tiring my muscles and ease of forward propulsion. I attribute this to its being shorter, lighter, more amenable to short strokes, and easier to switch sides. The ottertail and Cue straight paddles have much different feels, but were equally tiring for long stretches of correction stroking on the same side—no matter whether I used a J, C, pitch, Canadian, Indian, or secondary grip Northwoods stroke—and were about the same in klutziness when switching sides. They are quite different in slicing ability, the Moore Cue being significantly superior in that attribute.
There is no doubt that age has significantly weakened me as a single-sided correction stroker with any paddle. I used to be able to stroke on my strong (right) side all day with either a straight or bent paddle. Now, after about 20 minutes, my right arm and shoulder become fatigued by any sort of correction maneuver. I need to switch sides, and am grateful that I trained myself in earlier years to be reasonably ambidextrous with a single blade in flatwater.
The short, light bent shaft is much easier with which to execute a smooth aerial switch, and switch paddling with no fatiguing correction is becoming more attractive to me. The only vice of my 11 oz. bent paddle is that it doesn't weigh 7 oz., as some ZREs do.
This doesn't answer the question, raised by @Alan Gage, as to whether I would feel as comfortable with a short, light ZRE straight paddle. I'll be able to probe that question more closely in four weeks, when I will pick up a 53" ZRE straight paddle I've bought.
I've begun to think that all my 56"-59" straight paddles are unnecessarily long for efficiency and ergonomic comfort in flatwater, and I've long concluded that any paddle over 12 oz. is too heavy for my paddling preferences.
On a 4.75 hour paddle at a brisk (for me) recreational pace, I used each paddle about 1/3 of the time. This was not, obviously, a controlled scientific experiment, but rather a personal comparison experience.
The bent shaft ZRE was the most effective for me in terms of not tiring my muscles and ease of forward propulsion. I attribute this to its being shorter, lighter, more amenable to short strokes, and easier to switch sides. The ottertail and Cue straight paddles have much different feels, but were equally tiring for long stretches of correction stroking on the same side—no matter whether I used a J, C, pitch, Canadian, Indian, or secondary grip Northwoods stroke—and were about the same in klutziness when switching sides. They are quite different in slicing ability, the Moore Cue being significantly superior in that attribute.
There is no doubt that age has significantly weakened me as a single-sided correction stroker with any paddle. I used to be able to stroke on my strong (right) side all day with either a straight or bent paddle. Now, after about 20 minutes, my right arm and shoulder become fatigued by any sort of correction maneuver. I need to switch sides, and am grateful that I trained myself in earlier years to be reasonably ambidextrous with a single blade in flatwater.
The short, light bent shaft is much easier with which to execute a smooth aerial switch, and switch paddling with no fatiguing correction is becoming more attractive to me. The only vice of my 11 oz. bent paddle is that it doesn't weigh 7 oz., as some ZREs do.
This doesn't answer the question, raised by @Alan Gage, as to whether I would feel as comfortable with a short, light ZRE straight paddle. I'll be able to probe that question more closely in four weeks, when I will pick up a 53" ZRE straight paddle I've bought.
I've begun to think that all my 56"-59" straight paddles are unnecessarily long for efficiency and ergonomic comfort in flatwater, and I've long concluded that any paddle over 12 oz. is too heavy for my paddling preferences.
I would say weight and paddle length are the two main differences, and not so much straight vs bent. My straight shaft carbon paddle has spoiled me, and I now rarely use my wooden ones.
I did my own very unscientific test yesterday also. Two wood paddles of similar weight. One 54" and straight and the other a 52" BB Viper double bent. The Viper is slightly heavier.
I alternated between the two as I paddled several miles upstream, keeping track of how long it took for me to tire with each. In spite of being slightly heavier and not much shorter, I tired much less with the Viper.
When I diverged into the large pond that is the remains of a captured meander, I found it completely without wind. Testing there for top speed showed insignificant difference between the two. But once again, I found that I could maintain a sprint with the Viper longer.
I guess I can't say that this proves anything about the paddles, since for several years now I've almost exclusively used a bent for covering flat water. Could be just what I'm conditioned to. But I think it proves that weight and length difference aren't the ruling factor.
I alternated between the two as I paddled several miles upstream, keeping track of how long it took for me to tire with each. In spite of being slightly heavier and not much shorter, I tired much less with the Viper.
When I diverged into the large pond that is the remains of a captured meander, I found it completely without wind. Testing there for top speed showed insignificant difference between the two. But once again, I found that I could maintain a sprint with the Viper longer.
I guess I can't say that this proves anything about the paddles, since for several years now I've almost exclusively used a bent for covering flat water. Could be just what I'm conditioned to. But I think it proves that weight and length difference aren't the ruling factor.
Steve, were you paddling single side with correction strokes, or hit and switch to maintain a straight forward track?
There are so many variables that may come into play. While I very much enjoy using my straight wood otter tail paddles and those of similar variant shapes, they are primarily meant for pleasure cruising paddle strokes used for a long time just on one side. Speed and maneuverability may depend on my mood and purpose at the time. Maintaining a perfectly arrow straight course with corrections depends on which one of several canoes I use, the rocker of each canoe, if loaded for tripping, and If I strongly heel or not. I normally solo power stroke with a correcting pitch stroke component, and if I am including a partial or strong fast “J” along with a partial or full Canadian recovery stroke. The same is true when I use a carbon bent, relying on the pitch stroke and a quick light “J” flick only as needed at the end and not incorporating an awkward bent Canadian.
When race training, my solo stroke tempo increases and I may or may not transition from faster cadence single side to a fast hit and switch power stroke to increase forward speed. My muscle memory tends to want to include a slight correction pitch component. I don’t like H&S when solo because I feel the inefficiencies of switching every 4-6 strokes and the constant DB-like yaw that it creates. But it is the only mode to use to be solo race competitive. Personally, it does not feel like pleasurable canoeing to me. My normal 95% race configuration is as bow paddler in a 2, 4, or 6 seat team canoe when the open water “hut” call from the stern paddler may hopefully only come every 12-20 strokes during straight race cruising. Then my strokes are pure forward power strokes with a very rare 45 degree forward power draw or quick touch on or offside bow rudder for fine course correction as necessary. That all changes dramatically when on highly turn twisty segments such as Adirondack’s Brown’s Tract.
There are so many variables that may come into play. While I very much enjoy using my straight wood otter tail paddles and those of similar variant shapes, they are primarily meant for pleasure cruising paddle strokes used for a long time just on one side. Speed and maneuverability may depend on my mood and purpose at the time. Maintaining a perfectly arrow straight course with corrections depends on which one of several canoes I use, the rocker of each canoe, if loaded for tripping, and If I strongly heel or not. I normally solo power stroke with a correcting pitch stroke component, and if I am including a partial or strong fast “J” along with a partial or full Canadian recovery stroke. The same is true when I use a carbon bent, relying on the pitch stroke and a quick light “J” flick only as needed at the end and not incorporating an awkward bent Canadian.
When race training, my solo stroke tempo increases and I may or may not transition from faster cadence single side to a fast hit and switch power stroke to increase forward speed. My muscle memory tends to want to include a slight correction pitch component. I don’t like H&S when solo because I feel the inefficiencies of switching every 4-6 strokes and the constant DB-like yaw that it creates. But it is the only mode to use to be solo race competitive. Personally, it does not feel like pleasurable canoeing to me. My normal 95% race configuration is as bow paddler in a 2, 4, or 6 seat team canoe when the open water “hut” call from the stern paddler may hopefully only come every 12-20 strokes during straight race cruising. Then my strokes are pure forward power strokes with a very rare 45 degree forward power draw or quick touch on or offside bow rudder for fine course correction as necessary. That all changes dramatically when on highly turn twisty segments such as Adirondack’s Brown’s Tract.
While comparing paddles, I was paddling single side. I was in the Moccasin, which has turned out to be the hardest tracking solo canoe I've had, so very little correction was needed.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 1,113
- Reaction score
- 1,063
^^This^^
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 1,113
- Reaction score
- 1,063
One of my favorite comparisons. Both are 53.75" long. The Werner is 15 oz and the Black Bart is 16 oz. Both blades are a healthy size...around 115 sq in. The Black Bart is dramatically better (for me) as an all day paddle. The balance point on the Black Bart is 2 inches closer to the grip which makes it feel much shorter (um -maybe 2 inches shorter?) than the Werner plus the blade is exceptionally forgiving and quiet on the catch while I struggle to get a quiet entry with the Werner no matter how much I concentrate.
I totally agree with his findings, more or less.
Gumpus, these are bents or straights? If bents, what angle(s)? Is this comparison for single-sided correction stroking or H&S?
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2017
- Messages
- 1,113
- Reaction score
- 1,063
Black Bart Troublemaker and Werner Journey...both straight shafts. My main comparison is kneel and switch over distance and upstream where the Journey may start to feel like too much paddle while the equally powerful Troublemaker has logged many high mileage all day paddles. Both feel great for single-sided in-water recoveries and freestyle type stuff but the Troublemaker is smoother and quieter under all conditions (and has a thinner, more gently contoured blade).
The Journey seems heavy, mine comes in at 13 ounces, lol, not that 2 ounces is anything in a big outfit. I don't like the grip on the journey, but after 20 minutes or so I stop noticing it. I have paddles that I like more, that feel better in my hands, and in the water, but the weight gets me every time. The last beaver tail I made is not heavy, and I really like paddling with it, but after about ten minutes, I grab the Werner again. It seems like all the positive aspects of my other paddles are cancelled out by the light weight of the Journey.
Similar threads
