Jump on a deal blind, or wait for Solo Rendezvous?

I'm leaning towards picking up a composite solo boat - tired of cartopping and struggling upwind with my rolayex tandem that I solo 95% of the time. I've really never paddled a narrow solo boat - a very quick demo (15min each) last fall convinced me that a Northwind Solo is too hard to turn but a Phoenix seemed like it might be a good match. However, a used Hemlock Peregrine just popped up for what I think is a good price ($2k). The capacity and description seem to fit my needs, according to the Hemlock website and discussions here.

Do I jump on the Peregrine now, or risk waiting for the Rendezvous and hope I find a used boat there after trying more?

Thanks for all the great discussion and expertise you all bring to the forum - such a valuable resource!

Do you mind spending that much money for a used canoe? Do you think you could get your money back out of it (or at least most of your money) if you didn't like it or wanted to upgrade later?

I used to do that kind of thing all the time. I got to try out a lot of great boats and learned a lot.

Alan

Good questions! I suppose I should have asked whether $2k is a fair price for a used Peregrine. Hull has a few superficial scratches, gunnels look in excellent shape.

I would love to get a used boat for a lot less than that, but cruising the internet regularly the last few months it seems like the market (at least in the Northeast) is pretty tight. A new Hemlock is now listed for $3800, the Phoenix just went up to $2900. I have no idea what's likely to be at the Rendezvous and how it will be priced.

I'm not against losing a few hundred bucks over a few years; I also don't want to have to worry about every ding and scratch in terms of resale value. I'm told solos hold their value well. I also drag over beaver dams often (but then again I'm keeping the royalex).

Ive never paddled either, but the specs for the Peregrine vs. the Northwind Solo would lead me to believe that the Peregrine will not be any easier to turn. The phoenix has more rocker front and back and over a shorter distance and is easier to turn. Can you jet over to Hemlock canoe to test drive the peregrine? I‘m looking for a NS Phoenix in IXP for solo day trips myself.

I’m 50/50 on making it to the Rendezvous right now (never been) but my work schedule may not cooperate. If I do I would bring a Hemlock SRT and Bell Rockstar with me for others to try…. but neither is for sale.

Good Luck,
Barry

You can turn Peregrine easily with a moderate heel but i would not recommend it for fast moving water where quick direction change is necessary in quick water. It is very aptly described on the Hemlock site as a touring canoe for Lake country. Certainly can handle moving water, just wouldn’t recommend it for rambunctious water. Loved mine. Certain you could sell it if you don’t find it satisfying. I would do it…just my 2¢..

Thanks both of you for the insights....and for the offer of trials at the Rendezvous, Waterdog! I want turning capability for twisty but flatwater streams and swamps - for the Class I & II stuff I do, I'd stick with the royalex. I can't tell if my impression of the NW Solo would stick if I spent more time in boats like these - I'm not used to having to heel to turn but I'd like to learn.

I wouldn't buy it blind. I'd first want to know the date of manufacture, which can be determined from the HIN number, and also the weight. If this is truly Hemlock's premium+ layup, which is a Kevlar/carbon weave fabric, the price is very reasonable, in my opinion, because that canoe new would now cost $3,800 (with slotted gunwales and Conk seat, neither of which this canoe has).

Hemlock Peregrines are excellent flat water touring canoes and turn satisfactorily for flat water purposes. Many members here have them and like them. They do not show up on the used market very often and I doubt this canoe will last long at this price.

The Peregrine is a longer and more capacious canoe than the the specs of the Phoenix show, and from those specs I would assume the Phoenix turns very slightly better but is somewhat slower. And it may not turn any better if the paddler and gear load are heavy, which will bog down the rocker and stems. The Peregrine likely has a little more primary stability from the specs. Finally, from the pictures and words, it looks as if the Phoenix is marketed more towards being a river canoe.

Where will you paddle mostly, on flat water or on swift water?

Who knows what canoes might show up and be for sale at Rendezvous.

Thanks for your thoughts, Glenn. My paddling is mostly flatwater, but some moving flat and some swamps, so maneuverability is good. It looks from pics, and I think I read somewhere, that the Peregrine digs in more in the bow and stern with more of a load, which is sort of attractive - get where I'm going when tripping, turn easier when toodling.

I think that is a good deal on that Peregrine from the pics.

I don't know what your tolerance is for driving to look at canoes, Tsuga8, but if I were you (after getting the manufacture date from the seller), I'd consider agreeing over the phone to the price contingent on a 20-30 minute test paddle. Tell him that you wouldn't be driving such a long distance to waste his or your time, but you really have to know how the boat paddles for you. Perhaps bring a loaded pack to see how it paddles both empty and with a load.

Then, drive out to the seller as soon as possible, look at the canoe, maybe bring a bathroom scale to weigh it, and test paddle it with or without the seller, however he wants to do it.

If you don't like it for any reason—the test paddle, looks, color, scratches, weight, price—just say you don't care for how it paddles for your weight and style and leave. Chalk it up to a canoe experience day trip.

What about a Northstar Trillium, the Mountainman in Old Forge, NY had 1 in stock.

I had a Peregrine that spent a good amount of time in Temagami. There was some upstream travel on connecting rivers though it was mostly lake country. With a tripping load of 50 lbs and me the stems tended to dig in going upstream in current. I could heel it to free the stems though not to the rail( packs were not tied in).
There may or may not be one at Rendezvous.; they don't seem to pop up often. I sold mine to a friend years back as for me I wanted something more manueverable and had a good forward stroke that did not need help to make a rockered boat track.

These days that is a pretty good price.. the Kestrel on Hemlock website is going for almost a K more.

There is a RX Yellowstone Solo in Lexington VA that might fit your needs better. $800

@GeoBoy with me plus the dog, we're 250lbs and pushing recommended load for a Trillium. With a tripping load we'd be well over it, which is why I'd been eyeing up the Phoenix instead.

@yellowcanoe I was eyeing that Yellowstone. However, part of my desired upgrade reason is weight - my current RX tandem is only about 50lbs, so dropping to 44 doesn't feel like enough of an improvement, esp with the boat an 11hr round trip away. However, your description of your experience with the Peregrine is really helpful. Now I'm more of a mind to wait until the Rendezvous and try more boats. It might be that a Phoenix or SRT really is more what I want, but obviously paddling is a must. There is the trim factor too - as a poler would say, and as you probably already know, for going upstream the trim should really be downstream-heavy to keep the upstream end from digging in. But I'm sure a more rockered boat would still perform better in those circumstances as you say.

@Glenn MacGrady Good advice. I reached out but haven't heard back yet.

If minimizing carry weight is your goal, you will be pleasantly surprised what a delight it is to carry a boat 35# or less. So much easier to grab and load and repeat in reverse. And in my experience the improvements of impression seem to be exponential with a linear drop in weight.

In terms of handling characteristics, my experience is that it takes years to dial in skills and preferences.

That’s where Alan’s advice is so key. Buying used at prices where you can sell without too much loss opens doors. Then again one has to act fast to land those deals, especially now with a particular Facebook group that has effectively ruined the game of the hunt.

@Tsuga8 i just went through a similar decision. I’m 6’3” and 225 or so, sometimes with a kid. I have a Prism, which is fun, fast, and light, but gets a little annoying to turn in Florida’s twisty flat water rivers & streams. Especially when going upstream with any sort of current really working to push you to the outside. I was thinking about the NW Solo vs the Phoenix also, but given that I have and will keep the Prism, I shaded more towards a different tool for the tool box. A 45 minute conversation with Bear at Northstar helped. Your size and load matter, and I had been leaning towards a smaller day paddling boat. But ultimately I heeded Bear’s advice and opted for the more versatile boat and I have a Phoenix in IXP on order. Seems the boat is well liked when you can find someone to talk about it. Others say it’s full ends limit top efficient speed, that it “pushes back” when the paddler goes for speed. That all may be. But my intent is not to use it as a lake tripper. The Prism handles that. But down in Florida there are precious few opportunities to test any high end composite boats. The cost for me to drive to the W PA solo rendezvous would seriously cut into my boat funds, though I’d love to go.

Well, someone else beat me to the Peregrine, unsurprisingly. Thanks much for the advice, all! A useful discussion for sure.


I'm thinking of demo-ing a Boreas from ADK Canoe Co as well as hopefully trying a few different models at the Rendezvous. The Boreas seems to be about the only new composite solo available in my price range, though I never hear much speak of it on the forums and in terms of rocker it's closer to the Peregrine and NW Solo than the Phoenix or SRT. But it is a bit shorter at 14' which should hypothetically help with turning.

Per Woodpuppy's notes on the Phoenix, I think I'm in agreement - I'm more interested in a versatile boat that can do lakes and twisty creeks - I'll give up some speed for turning ability, and any of these boats should be a lot faster and track better than the 15', 35" wide tandem that I solo now. Plenty lighter too.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, folks!

Good luck and have a blast at the rendezvous! Sure wish there was something like it in my AO.

If you are planning a trip to try the Boreas, it might be a good time to test paddle any Northstars you are interested in. I have a Firebird on the road to Racquette Lake Outfitters and that trailer may well be dropping inventory at the Bolton Landing dealer also. I'd be happy to let you try my Boreas in the Albany area, but it is pack style so probably wouldn't help you much.

Tsuga8,
I have a 39 lb Kite you can come try out. Design load is 283 lbs. Not sure where in the Hudson Valley you are, but I'm in the Mohawk Valley, 20 minutes from the Hudson.
C'mon up and see if you like it.

I can't imagine paying $2,000 for a solo boat when you could build 3 or 4 of them for the same cost.

Dang I want to try that…