Hemlock SRT struggles

[Art D]

I took delivery of a Hemlock SRT about a month and a half ago with idea if using it for tripping on some class II rivers. I tipped it and swam with the fishes within 20 seconds of putting it on water, and I tipped again this afternoon (wearing a dry suit here in Maine). I feel like I'm missing something, like I just don't understand the boat.

Let me add that my point of reference is the Northstar Magic, which I trip in, paddle almost daily for exercise and fish from throwing 10" swimbaits with a 8 1/2 foot rod. I feel super stable in the Magic.

Can anyone offer some insight?

Thanks.

 

[tomo]

Are you sitting or kneeling? I’ve only had my SRT since June, so I’m far from an expert. It definitely has twitchy initial stability, but I feel pretty stable sitting with a full tripping load and with my feet on the foot pegs. Does yours have foot pegs? If not, maybe something to look into. Maybe try putting some ballast in to see if that helps. It firms up okay when leaned, in my experience, but I hear you. With the rounded bottom and narrow width, it is a lively canoe. I imagine you’re accustomed to narrow boats paddling a magic like you do.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The SRT is initially tippy because it not only has a narrow (26") waterline, but it has a more rounded bottom than most other canoes, which have what are usually called shallow arch or elliptical bottoms. Some of these shallow arch bottoms are really shallow, almost flat bottoms, which provide strong initial stability. The SRT's rounded bottom was preferred by the designer, Harold Deal, because it makes the canoe faster with a heavy load than a flatter bottom.

Are you kneeling or sitting? The SRT is primarily intended as kneeling canoe, which lowers your center of gravity compared to a sitting position. Sitting requires even more balance. You may need to lower the seat even if you are kneeling. I lowered mine to 9" above the floor from the 10+" that Dave Curtis had set it at.

The Bell Magic, and probably the Northstar Magic, were designed as sitting canoes, having flatter bottoms and hence relatively strong initial stability, although some owners prefer to kneel in them too. The SRT will carry much heavier loads, have more secondary stability, and will be more amenable to radical heels for maneuvering in whitewater.

That all said, you'll just have to get used to the initial twitchiness by improving your autonomic balance, by probably 40-50 hours in the canoe, or else you won't enjoy that canoe or probably any whitewater design canoe. Be optimistic. Once, you couldn't ride a two wheel bicycle.

 

[Art D]

Are you sitting or kneeling? I’ve only had my SRT since June, so I’m far from an expert. It definitely has twitchy initial stability, but I feel pretty stable sitting with a full tripping load and with my feet on the foot pegs. Does yours have foot pegs? If not, maybe something to look into. Maybe try putting some ballast in to see if that helps. It firms up okay when leaned, in my experience, but I hear you. With the rounded bottom and narrow width, it is a lively canoe. I imagine you’re accustomed to narrow boats paddling a magic like you do.

I have yet to paddle with any weight in the boat and will give that a try next time out, probably this weekend if the river doesn't ice up again.

I seem to recall Deal saying it was a boat that encouraged vertical (or upright?) paddling. What do you suppose that means?

Art

 

[tomo]

I think he meant the narrowness promotes vertical paddle strokes.

 

[Art D]

The SRT is initially tippy because it not only has a narrow (26") waterline, but it has a more rounded bottom than most other canoes, which have what are usually called shallow arch or elliptical bottoms. Some of these shallow arch bottoms are really shallow, almost flat bottoms, which provide strong initial stability. The SRT's rounded bottom was preferred by the designer, Harold Deal, because it makes the canoe faster with a heavy loads than a flatter bottom.

Are you kneeling or sitting? The SRT is primarily intended as kneeling canoe, which lowers your center of gravity compared to a sitting position. Sitting requires even more balance. You may need to lower the seat even if you are kneeling. I lowered mine to 9" above the floor from the 10+" that Dave Curtis had set it at.

The Bell Magic, and probably the Northstar Magic, were designed as sitting canoes, having flatter bottoms and hence relatively strong initial stability, although some owners prefer to kneel in them too. The SRT will carry much heavier loads, have more secondary stability, and will be more amenable to radical heels for maneuvering in whitewater.

That all said, you'll just have to get used to the initial twitchiness by improving your autonomic balance, by probably 40-50 hours in the canoe, or else you won't enjoy that canoe or probably any whitewater design canoe. Be optimistic. Once, you couldn't ride a two wheel bicycle.

Thank you, Glenn. I'm fully committed to the canoe and will put in the time.

 

[Waterdog]

I own an SRT and agree you need to get some ballast in the canoe. I paddle it empty a lot and it is a lively hull. I find empty it has little initial stability and virtually no secondary stability. Keep after it, it’s a great hull.

Cheers,
Barry

 

[Alan Gage]

Maybe I missed the answer but are you sitting or kneeling?

If sitting then how high is the seat?

Trying to sit in a taller seat that is setup for kneeling will make any boat tippy, some more than others.

I had a Bell Wildfire with a kneeling seat and I had to really be careful if I paddled it sitting. Kneeling was a breeze.

I also had a lot of experience paddling (and fishing) from a Magic.

Alan

 

[Art D]

Maybe I missed the answer but are you sitting or kneeling?

If sitting then how high is the seat?

Trying to sit in a taller seat that is setup for kneeling will make any boat tippy, some more than others.

I had a Bell Wildfire with a kneeling seat and I had to really be careful if I paddled it sitting. Kneeling was a breeze.

I also had a lot of experience paddling (and fishing) from a Magic.

Alan

Yeah, I was sitting while taking a break from kneeling. I do feel more in control kneeling but not enough to make me confident. I'll put in the time, as Glenn suggests.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

When paddling the SRT empty, as I mostly do, I can't sit with confidence unless the water is very smooth and there's little to no wind. If wind or waves come up, or if I'm in moving water, I'm too unstable sitting even though I lowered the seat. Lowering the seat even an inch can noticeably increase stability. In a kneeling canoe, I recommend lowering the seat to the point where you can still extricate your calves and feet with a little wiggling.

I lowered my seat the second day of owning my SRT, even though I had had 26 years experience at that time in narrow whitewater solo canoes. I bought a bunch of rubber washers in a hardware store in the Adirondacks to experiment with different heights. (I have the Deal bucket seat with the movable drop block arrangement.) I ended up lowering the seat as much as possible consistent with safety. It may be 8.5" off the floor. Then I got some longer shim blocks and bolts from Dave Curtis when I found my preferred height. I use wing nuts to make removing and moving the seat easier.

I also have an 8" deep Conk seat I can swap into the adjustable drop block instead of the bucket seat, but I ended up preferring the bucket.

 

[Jatfomike]

I've never paddled an SRT, though I hope to some day.....I have a Northstar Phoenix and faced some of the same challenges you are now. Mine came with a low seat for sitting even though the boat was designed for kneeling. The rounded hull made it challenging in the beginning....I stayed on flat water for the first few weeks to get used to it. The more time I spent in it, the more comfortable I became. The first Summer, I gradually raised the seat so I could comfortably/safely kneel without getting my size 13's stuck under it. By the end of my second Summer, I had the seat raised to the gunwales for sitting (on calm water) and was able to transition from sitting- kneeling and kneeling-sitting w/out fear of swimming....definitely had my share of "learning swims" in there, LOL! Good luck and enjoy!

Mike

 

[Tsuga8]

I had the pleasure of quick outings in a Phoenix and an SRT at the Maine Symposium last summer, thanks to some fellow attendees willing to let me try their boats. I hadn't really spent any time in a narrow solo, and while the Phoenix felt ginger getting it compared to the flat-bottom tandems I'm used to walking around in, once kneeling it felt solid in primary and secondary stability. I even dared to stand up in it for half a forward stroke.

The SRT, in contrast, felt like a bucking bronco the whole time. Getting in, but also just kneeling, I immediately understood what I'd heard about people tipping over just from looking over their shoulder. It didn't take long for me to hop out of the SRT. I understand that much better paddlers than me really like the boat - but it was clear to me it has a steep learning curve. Not to say you shouldn't keep the boat and keep at it, but just to sympathize with your experience. I'm sure I would have swam if I'd stayed in that boat longer than 10min. Kudos for keeping it up at this time of cold water!

I've also read that keeping your head between the gunnels is key to staying upright in such a boat - perhaps that was also implied by the comment about it being a boat to be paddled vertically?

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I've also read that keeping your head between the gunnels is key to staying upright in such a boat - perhaps that was also implied by the comment about it being a boat to be paddled vertically?

I feel confident that Harold would have meant that his SRT is amenable to vertical paddle strokes because it's fairly narrow, the sides are fairly straight rather than flared or tumblehomed, and the gunwales are "tucked" or "shouldered"—that is, the outwales do not protrude out beyond the composite hull. Therefore, you are able to take forward strokes pretty vertically and close to the keel line.

Aggressively heeling a canoe almost or all the way down to the gunwale is the proficient canoeist's way of turning any canoe in whitewater and flatwater. Indeed, in whitewater it is necessary to "rail" the canoe to do the most efficient and snappiest eddy turns and peel outs. To do this, you must heel (tilt, cock) the hull with your lower body at your hips—usually using thigh straps in whitewater—while keeping your upper body vertical, which means the vertical plane of your head should remain inside vertical plane of the gunwale that's kissing the water. Otherwise, your center of mass will be outside the hull and you will tip over as you radically heel the hull.

My two biggest technical breakthroughs in learning to be a proficient whitewater paddler were when I learned to stay solidly upright while radically heeling the hull to turn, and when I learned how to do cross-forward strokes. Both of these techniques are highly useful in flatwater, too, especially in a hull like the SRT.

 

[Art D]

I feel confident that Harold would have meant that his SRT is amenable to vertical paddle strokes because it's fairly narrow, the sides are fairly straight rather than flared or tumblehomed, and the gunwales are "tucked" or "shouldered"—that is, the outwales do not protrude out beyond the composite hull. Therefore, you are able to take forward strokes pretty vertically and close to the keel line.

Aggressively heeling a canoe almost or all the way down to the gunwale is the proficient canoeist's way of turning any canoe in whitewater and flatwater. Indeed, in whitewater it is necessary to "rail" the canoe to do the most efficient and snappiest eddy turns and peel outs. To do this, you must heel (tilt, cock) the hull with your lower body at your hips—usually using thigh straps in whitewater—while keeping your upper body vertical, which means the vertical plane of your head should remain inside vertical plane of the gunwale that's kissing the water. Otherwise, your center of mass will be outside the hull and you will tip over as you radically heel the hull.

My two biggest technical breakthroughs in learning to be a proficient whitewater paddler were when I learned to stay solidly upright while radically heeling the hull to turn, and when I learned how to do cross-forward strokes. Both of these techniques are highly useful in flatwater, too, especially in a hull like the SRT.

Thank you, Glenn. This is really helpful. I'm already thinking about a day of heeling exercises in shallow water.

 

[soloskip]

Hi Art:
I‘ve had an SRT for about 8 or 10 years (maybe more). It has accompanied me to the BWCAW, Algonquin a few times, the adirondacks many times, local streams and lakes for trips lasting from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. Before I purchased it, Dave Curtis had me paddle a variety of at his canoe models at his ‘demo night’ that he has every week from Spring through Fall. I have other canoes, they each have a particular use, but the SRT is my favorite. It’s fast, responsive, stable, dry, paddles well in the wind and waves and will carry more gear than than I need to carry.

My experience with the ’twitchiness’ of the SRT is something I’ve gotten used to over the years. My remedy early on was to load the canoe with more weight than necessary for day paddles which took care of it; now I don’t notice, even in an unloaded canoe.

My experience with Dave Curtis has always been positive. He is an unbelievably knowledgeable man about all things canoe and canoe-tripping. He has always seemed to be more interested in matching folks with the right canoe (for you) than in selling you something you won’t be happy with.

Regards,
Skip

 

[Art D]

Yes, Dave Curtis was great to work with and I in no way meant to suggest that my struggles were the boat’s fault but only my own. I look forward to figuring it out and spending many hours on the water in it.