Canoes not tippy?

[meopilite]

Some things i just dont understand...... I have an Old Town Discovery 158 that seems very stable, even in rough water. If I wanted to tip it, it would. But I'd really have to lean to one side and get a good portion of my body outside the gunnels. At the beginning of each season I go to a shallow lake with nice sandy bottom to get reacquainted with my canoe. I'll try to get it to tip as much as i can to one side. I can always 'feel' that point of no return. The canoe wants to tip back again until a certain point. I like to get a feel for that point of no return.

Watching some of the YouTube videos of canoes tipping over, some of those seem to just roll over without the canoeist do anything wrong? One example is a Coleman canoe that would roll over even the the 2 people in it stayed centered, perfectly still, and didnt move a muscle. The canoe just could not stay upright. Now, I used to own the same kind of Coleman canoe, and to get it to tip wasnt too easy.

Maybe some people are just not meant to be in a canoe. Maybe my day will come. But if I do ever tip, I think it will be because i did something stupid. Or because the carp tipped me over.

 

[JoeO]

Round bottom canoes tip easy , flat bottom harder. White water even class 2 or a big wave will flip a flat bottom canoe if you do not have a good brace and if a rock if under the canoe a brace does not work
This is me running the Contoocook in Hennicker NH I had electrip pumps but shorted them out flat bottom boat caption I swim near the end I get sucked into a whole swim was 3 mins on tape (not all there) felt like hours swimming class IV water no fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dQ-NpYhIvM

 

[yellowcanoe]

Colemans typically have the bow seat too far forward . Its an incredibly narrow paddling station. Bow paddler ejection is typically the cause of capsize.. The bow needs to have sufficient buoyancy and flare to be stable for the bow paddler. Too narrow a station and out ye go.
Round bottom canoes do not tip easily per se. If they have round bottoms and some flare up higher they are absolutely fine.
It's important to make a distinction between primary stability ( the stability when you get in) and secondary stability ( when you heel the canoe over on the side). Some Wenonahs have very iffy secondary stability but due to a flatter floor do fine with primary.

You should always tip. Practice tipping with warm water in a safe place. Ejection does make you a better paddler and more prepared to deal with a capsize. I am not afraid to capsize and push the boat hull to its limits with knowing that too far will get me wet. On a lake.. so what!

I have been flipped by marine life but not by a carp. I don't even know what those look like. A manatee did me in.

 

[meopilite]

I can heel my canoe over to about 4 inches from water to gunnel and be pretty safe. Getting the gunnels about 2 inches from the water surface is pretty 'iffy. At that point i can feel the canoe wants to almost flip. I think with a little practice with distributing my weight properly, I could actually get the gunnel within 1 inch of the water, but i'd probably flip a few times before getting it right.

I think one mistake with some people is that they just dont know how to 'control' a canoe. In videos I've seen with canoes tipping, they are just sitting there. Ya have to make that canoe do some stuff!!

 

[yellowcanoe]

Canoes are more stable when underway.. That thing called FreeStyle depends on heeling at some point. We teach people to increase boat heel with it underway.. Not at a dead stop.. At a standstill is pretty wobbly territory.
Some of my boats I can submerge the gunwale and ship water while paddling. This is fun to show the kids but otherwise with a tripping situation kinda counterproductive!

 

[meopilite]

Good point yellowcanoe.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Round bottom canoes tip easy , flat bottom harder. White water even class 2 or a big wave will flip a flat bottom canoe if you do not have a good brace and if a rock if under the canoe a brace does not work
This is me running the Contoocook in Hennicker NH I had electrip pumps but shorted them out flat bottom boat caption I swim near the end I get sucked into a whole swim was 3 mins on tape (not all there) felt like hours swimming class IV water no fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dQ-NpYhIvM

FREIGHT TRAIN!!!

I enjoyed that video, as I haven't paddled the Contoocook in 30 years. It brought back memories, although I never paddled it quite that low.

It was probably March of '84. The Appalachian Mountain Club had a rating system for whitewater paddlers from 1 to 4. I was fairly new and unrated. I was solo in a Mad River ME. On Saturday I had run the class 4 Funnel on the Lower Millers, of which I was proud, for I had carried it the year earlier.

On Sunday I ran for the first time the even more fearsome Contoocook. There was Mike Zabre, who owned a canoe shop in Massachusetts, paddling tandem, and Sue Burgess and Steve Tuckerman, both class 4 rated paddlers, paddling solo in a Blue Hole OCA and an Old Town Tripper, respectively.

Of course, I had read all about the river in Gabler's guidebook and was quite afeared of S-Turn and, most especially, Freight Train.

We stopped briefly at the top of S-Turn and I asked Steve if we should walk it to scout it. Steve says, "Nah. It's so dang long and complicated that you forget your plan before you're a third the way through it, and you then have to wing it anyway. Just wing it." So I did, successfully.

When I get to the top of Freight Train, I see Steve's and Sue's boats pulled ashore, with them sitting on top of a rock. "Aren't you paddling it," I say. "No," they reply, "we'll watch you." Egad, class 4 paddlers aren't going on the Train! What have I gotten myself into!!!

Mike Zabre says, "Just follow me. We're mostly going to eddy hop down the left side." So I followed his boat exactly, as he led me into every good bailing eddy on the left side. It was actually easy.

I never had a problem with the 'took after that, but our group did walk away in mortal fear one spring when the river was raging at over 11', I think. Virtually every one of those hundreds of rocks were violent holes.

There was an old dam at the bottom of Freight Train where we took out in those days. I understand that dam is now gone. I tested my first dry suit in '85 by deliberately swimming from the bottom of Freight Train to the takeout. What a difference from the wetsuit and wool shirts of the day.

The ME, designed by John Berry as both a tandem and solo slalom racing canoe, is still my favorite whitewater canoe of all time. It's a little tippy initially but it firms up well secondarily. Turns are meant to be taken with the rail kissing the foam. I don't like flat bottomed boats with sharp chines.

 

[colab]

Colemans typically have the bow seat too far forward . Its an incredibly narrow paddling station. Bow paddler ejection is typically the cause of capsize..

This. If I'm soloing, I find my Old Town Guide has very high secondary stability. I have to really try hard to flip it. I can lean it far enough over to take water on over the gunnels, and it will still roll back upright. But when my wife is in the bow seat, it's not as stable. We capsized in some class ii rapids once. My dog of about 90 lbs was also in the middle, sitting up. We took a poor line over a chute with rocks, and the boat rolled, it rolled back, and on the next roll the bow paddler's weight was well over the edge of the narrow gunnels, and we capsized. We had helmets, life-jackets, and wetsuits, so it was fine, but I doubt we would have capsized if she wasn't in the bow seat. It would have been better if she was kneeling behind it.

 

[meopilite]

Like this colab??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9LNGC9MM4

 

[Marten]

I just inherited an Old Town Penobscot 15 foot canoe, yes a Penobscot 15, made about 1993. The canoe never got much use because almost everyone that took it out ended up getting wet. These were not seasoned paddlers and I know that model has had its fans. I had used it for a BWCA trip so knew it could be handled without flipping. Years ago I tested it on a warm day and found that at some point in a lean it just kept going like sitting on a barrel. Maybe that is why it was dropped after a few years. Picture in the next post.

 

[Marten]

No Title

Old Town Penobscot 15

 

[sailsman63]

I believe that "Canoes are not tippy - people are tippy"

In support, I'll relate the following incident:

The first time that I had my current hull out for a test paddle, I took two other people for a 5 min out-and-back. Total of about 480 lbs, which is right at the design load for the hull. I've got a rounded bottom with flare. The stern paddler and I started out seated high, on temporary seat rigs. The third, about 160#, was seated on the bottom midships, not paddling.

This was the most insecure that I have ever felt in a canoe. We could not keep the hull from rolling about 45deg. either side, even when my stern paddler went to a kneeling stance. Since this was a new, experimental hull, I was near to panic. Our midships cargo decided to leave after a very few minutes, and immediately the hull became more stable and controllable, even though or net center of gravity was higher.

I have since taken the same hull out with a larger people load, and had it handle reasonably well. I've also been able to (gingerly) stand on centerline and paddle with just my body weight in calm conditions. I can only conclude that the midships persons balance reflexes were just enough out of sync that he inadvertently set up some unfortunate resonances... I've paddled with him before, and this is the first time that we had that problem.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joe O' That river looks like it would be fun. What scares me about it is that so much looks... reasonable. I've never paddled whitewater, and other than a bit about a third of the way through, (You got splashed pretty good) and the segment from about 12:30 to the end, it all looks like things I might be willing to try in small doses, with a bit of advance scouting. Perhaps I'm missing the full impression of how big it is in real life?

 

[JoeO]

I believe that "Canoes are not tippy - people are tippy"

In support, I'll relate the following incident:

The first time that I had my current hull out for a test paddle, I took two other people for a 5 min out-and-back. Total of about 480 lbs, which is right at the design load for the hull. I've got a rounded bottom with flare. The stern paddler and I started out seated high, on temporary seat rigs. The third, about 160#, was seated on the bottom midships, not paddling.

This was the most insecure that I have ever felt in a canoe. We could not keep the hull from rolling about 45deg. either side, even when my stern paddler went to a kneeling stance. Since this was a new, experimental hull, I was near to panic. Our midships cargo decided to leave after a very few minutes, and immediately the hull became more stable and controllable, even though or net center of gravity was higher.

I have since taken the same hull out with a larger people load, and had it handle reasonably well. I've also been able to (gingerly) stand on centerline and paddle with just my body weight in calm conditions. I can only conclude that the midships persons balance reflexes were just enough out of sync that he inadvertently set up some unfortunate resonances... I've paddled with him before, and this is the first time that we had that problem.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joe O' That river looks like it would be fun. What scares me about it is that so much looks... reasonable. I've never paddled whitewater, and other than a bit about a third of the way through, (You got splashed pretty good) and the segment from about 12:30 to the end, it all looks like things I might be willing to try in small doses, with a bit of advance scouting. Perhaps I'm missing the full impression of how big it is in real life?

Whats not posted is the 3 minute swim when I posted the video I was looking for life insurance and I did not think it was a good idea to post it. My wife saw the video of me swimming and goes whats that sound I said me drowning and swallowing water. This is about as high as I like to run it without electric pumps my boat fill to much with water when I pull over boat is usually 1/2 to 3/4 full of water. I ran it once at 9 feet the class 2 section turned into class 3 at S turn there was a swimmer I stall the boat whole front end submarined flipped me out. the boat ended up going down stream and pined on a log standing straight up. Lucky for me kayaker was there and able to get boat free. I did not run freight train after that. I got out at the fishermens take out before freight train I broke the gunnel but was able to glue it back together and was back on the water again.

 

[colab]

Like this colab??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9LNGC9MM4

That's the same canoe. They make it look awful. I can stand on the gunnels and rock mine without it tipping. I paddle it stand-up on the bottom through foot-high waves. It's my first canoe, and I'm a complete novice, but it took a lot more than that to capsize it.

 

[meopilite]

No Title

watching the video, i think that canoe would tip without anyone in it. Unless those guys are purposely trying to look like Laurel & Hardy.

 

[Grandpa Paddler]

Like this colab??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9LNGC9MM4

Sure glad I have never ever paddled with those guys. So bad I couldn't watch the entire video.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Well canoes ARE tippy when they are too small for the load.. And putting the bow paddler in is a guaranteed dunking.. or at least most of the time..
Now the definition of insanity is......?

 

[Steve in Idaho]

My wife gets in the bow first all the time, without dumping. But I'm holding the stern down at the time, while standing to the side. Push off....hop in....done. Easy, peasy. In boats with less initial than that OT Guide.

OTOH, I can attest to the bow station trap in the Coleman - which YC ddescribed.