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Thwart width

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Hello there, new on this forum, based in the Berkshires, MA.

I bought a fiberglass canoe for $50 and I'm renovating it. It had no thwart or handles and I made both out of poplar and shaped the thwart using a template i found online (thank you Google). Since there was no thwart, I don't have anything to go by as for the width.
Should the thwart be a little wider than the canoe (and then increase the canoe width) or, contrarily, should it be narrower than the canoe width (decrease the canoe width)? Any help would be appreciated.

I have filled most of the small gouges in the hull with fiberglass resin, I'm rebuilding both flotation chambers with new fiberglass, painting the hull with Rustoleum marine primer and red coat, fitting two new canoe seats. Lots of sanding. I'm trying to keep everything under $300, it's a weekender canoe.
 
I don’t think there is any ‘should involved. I’ve experienced both scenarios when removing thwarts. The hull will move in or out depending on the stresses in the hull. Maybe someone will chime in with the same boat and can measure theirs for you.
Welcome to the campfire.
Jim
 
Interesting question. I could see the benefit of pre-stressing the glass by making the thwart wider it narrower but suspect that one would have to stretch the cloth during construction (like the rebar in pre-stressed concrete) in order to achieve a measurable strength benefit.

I'm nearing completion on my stripper build and figuring to fit the thwart to the hull in its relaxed state. (that may, however, change depending on responses on this thread.)

Welcome to the fire.
 
Interesting question. I could see the benefit of pre-stressing the glass by making the thwart wider it narrower but suspect that one would have to stretch the cloth during construction (like the rebar in pre-stressed concrete) in order to achieve a measurable strength benefit.

I'm nearing completion on my stripper build and figuring to fit the thwart to the hull in its relaxed state. (that may, however, change depending on responses on this thread.)

Gamma,

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about up there. "Prestressing" the glass for a build won't work like it does for concrete. The object in boatbuilding with reinforcing fabrics is just getting the fibers as straight as possible, maybe stretching them when putting the fabric in place in order to straighten them, but letting them relax after they're where wanted and hoping they stay straight. There is really no way to tension them when doing the actual layup. It would be a real trick when working inside the boat or mold.

If the fibers aren't as straight as they can be, it does reduce strength somewhat, but I seriously doubt that it would make a lot of difference in overall boat strength. It also would make them a little heavier as there would be more fabric in the hull (because fibers aren't straight -- shortest distance and all that), and the fabrics usually weigh more than the resin they displace, making a heavier boat. Unless the layers are really wavy, this isn't gonna make a lot of difference in weight either. It is sloppy construction, and if at least the top layer isn't straight, it looks sloppy, too, unless the buyer has no clue as to the intricacies and characteristics of composites.

Something that really would affect boat performance is what I'm assuming you're referring to above, as well as Froggio and Boatman53 in their posts -- the length of the thwart placed. Thwart width to me would be if the thwart is made from a 1x2 or 1x3 or 1x4 board. That's me. Changing length of the thwart changes boat width. If it's a center thwart, it could really mess with the paddling characteristics the designer intended for that hull and others would too, but less so. Take all the thwarts out of a hull and pull the gunnels apart at the center, and the ends of the boat rise up in the air, increasing rocker, maybe a lot. Whitewater paddlers like rocker so they can maneuver quickly. Flatwater paddlers don't like rocker because it generally slows the boat down and makes it hard to paddle in a straight line. Now push the gunnels towards each other, making the boat narrower. Notice that the ends of the boat go down, straightening the keel line, maybe even "hogging" the boat so the center bottom is higher than the ends. Flatwater paddlers would like the straight keel line. Knowledgeable ones would not want a hogged hull. The longer or shorter center thwart would also change the hull width somewhat at the waterline, which would also change the paddling characteristics somewhat, though probably less so than the keel line scenario described above.

Not sure I've clearly described what I want to say above. More discussion?
 
Interesting question. I could see the benefit of pre-stressing the glass by making the thwart wider it narrower but suspect that one would have to stretch the cloth during construction (like the rebar in pre-stressed concrete) in order to achieve a measurable strength benefit.

I'm nearing completion on my stripper build and figuring to fit the thwart to the hull in its relaxed state. (that may, however, change depending on responses on this thread.)

Welcome to the fire.
Not sure you understand where i am at. It's a used canoe with a good hull, no fiberglassing except the flotation at both ends. The thwart in the middle of the canoe needs to be cut. What width? More than the canoe's width? Less?
 
I wouldn't stress over it, especially for fiberglass. I would just cut it to fit the canoe is it is.

Poplar is probably fine for a regular thwart. Ash, cherry, and walnut are commonly used. I made a poplar portage yoke once and wouldn't do it again, but for a thwart you'll be ok

Once you cut them and drill the holes.I recommend coating the ends of your thwarts with varnish, watco oil, or whatever you are using.
 
If you still have the original seats, and how they mount, I would install them first. The after the seats are mounted, I would cut the thwart to fit. I wouldn't stress the width of the hull in any direction.
Just my thoughts.
Roy
 
Not sure you understand where i am at. It's a used canoe with a good hull, no fiberglassing except the flotation at both ends. The thwart in the middle of the canoe needs to be cut. What width? More than the canoe's width? Less?

MrPoling said:
I wouldn't stress over it, especially for fiberglass. I would just cut it to fit the canoe is it is.

RoyBrew also said:
If you still have the original seats, and how they mount, I would install them first. The after the seats are mounted, I would cut the thwart to fit. I wouldn't stress the width of the hull in any direction.

Froggio,

If you want to use the KISS principal, (Keep It Simple, Stupid!), following MrPoling's and RoyBrew's advice is sound. Most 16- to 17-foot recreational canoes I'm familiar with are designed with a center width at the gunnels (gunwales) at about 35 or 36 inches. That's measured to the outside of the actual hull, below the outwale portion of the gunnel, so that outwale would stick out some on each side and make the boat a little wider than the 35 or 36 inches. Cutting the length of the thwart to make the canoe that width (a quarter-inch or so less than the desired 35 or 36 inches or whatever you choose) is definitely close enough.

Notice that if you put the canoe on a flat concrete surface like a patio, sidewalk, or garage floor, that the center of the canoe probably contacts the floor and the ends of the boat sink a little, which narrows the width at center. If you put it on sawhorses that are closer to the ends of the boat, that would force the ends up a little (weight in the center forcing it down) which would make the hull wider in the center. Those would indicate different lengths of the thwart board to make the hull stay at that width.

I have no knowledge of your Nature Bound brand of canoe or which model it might be (if there was more than one?). If the designed keel line of the boat is straight, the whole length of the boat hull might contact the cement surface, which would be good for straight-ahead paddling, bad for maneuvering. Cut your thwart length appropriately. It probably doesn't matter much. If you don't like it, make another later. I'd agree again with MrPoling and question poplar as a good wood for that center thwart, but then I tend to single-carry my own canoes a lot. Meaning carrying it alone, no help, upside down with the center thwart across my neck, using it as a short-term yoke. I'd use 3/4" ash and shape it as you please for a stronger thwart for such duty. If you always will have help carrying the boat, the poplar would work, as long as you don't drop something heavy on it (a cooler?), or fall against it yourself. You've got the thwart. Cut it to a length and install it and try it and see how it works. If you have issues, make another, either poplar again, or ash, or cherry or oak, or whatever you like or have available.

Good luck with it and please report back as to how it works out for you.

Edited to add:
My limited experience doing this indicates that when thwarts are taken out of a canoe, the gunnels tend to try to straighten out some, meaning that the boat becomes narrower than designer intended. Installing the thwarts widens it again. If you have an older boat, the gunnels may have had some of that straightening effect worked out of them over time. Some? All? None? We need Mike McCrea in here as he's got a lot of experience with this stuff.

In any case, install your thwart temporarily then put the boat on the concrete garage floor and make sure that the ends aren't the only place touching the concrete. Boat center touching and the ends up a little bit, an inch or less, or at most the whole bottom end to end touching the concrete.

God, I'm making this complicated!!!
 
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Nick, I think you did fine. I had wondered about stretching the glass on the outside (I've got far more experience with concrete than fiberglass) but what you've explained makes sense.
Gamma,

You can stretch the glass on the outside of a canoe hull if there aren't any concavities in it. That "great concavity" on the inside of a strip canoe or the inside of a female mold for making a fiberglass canoe means it wouldn't work there. Doesn't that at least partially negate the effects (and effort) of doing it on the outside? I think so (and you're not obligated to agree). Even on the outside of the stripper, I don't think it's worth the effort of doing any actual stretching. I just try for getting the fabric laid on on the outside (and inside) as straight and square as I can with no wrinkles. It's tougher to do on the inside of the canoe because glass tends to fall back into the boat until it's held in place somehow.

The concrete prestressing I've seen was with steel cables stretched and concrete poured (and put under compression?) around the cables. I'm sure it could be done with rebar (or substitute bar) threaded at the ends and "stretched" by screwing nuts tight, compressing the concrete. If you cut the concrete in either case (cable or bar), you lose the prestress "stretch," though, don't you? I've heard of post-tensioning concrete with cables in plastic tubes or putting the nuts on bars, but read that lifespan is shorter than with prestress (not explained why). I know nothing lasts forever. I'm not a concrete guy at all, more experience with composites, not that it's saying much. I've looked into the prestress and post tensioning for info for use in composites and decided it was not worth the effort. You don't have to agree (no one else here does, either). Thanks.
 
I've seen dozens of 16' canoes measuring anywhere between 31-38" wide, the width really depends on what the canoe was designed for- cruising canoes can be surprisingly narrow while fishing ones or freighter-style (not all freighters are square stern) can be very wide.
as a rule of thumb, I take a piece of 1x3 about 42" long and some clamps, place the canoe on a flat surface, press down on the centre until it touches, clamp the 1x3 in place, then try a short test paddle. if it handles as desired mark it and use it to set your thwart width, if not, try shifting it in 1" increments either way until happy. this is the ONLY way I know that seems to work on every boat.
 
I would simply take the inside measurement, where you want a thwart, and cut the thwart to make a snug fit.''

Jim
 
Hello there, new on this forum

Froggio, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos, and to start threads, in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please add your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

The brand is Nature Bound, long gone company. It's a 16' canoe.

I found a Nature Bound Canoes/Outdoors Endeavors (of Fitchburg, MA) listing in the 1989 Canoe Magazine Buyer's Guide. Of their 14 boats listed, two are 16' in length and quite a bit different in width and end depth.

The Whisper II is very narrow. It is 33" width at the molded beam, which doesn't include the outwales and hence would be the center thwart measurement. It's waterline width, measured 4" up from the bottom is 30.5". It's bow/center/stern depths are 18/13.5/18. The bottom shape is a rounded V and it's sides are tumblehomed. It weighs 57 lbs.

The 16' Mill Pond is much wider, and deeper at the ends. It has molded beam and 4" waterline widths of 36.5" (thwart length) and 36". The depths are 21/12.5/20. The bottom shape is shallow arch and the side shape is straight (not tumblehomed or flared). The weight is 69 lbs.

You should be able to figure out which model canoe you have from these specifications.
 
Froggio, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos, and to start threads, in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please add your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.



I found a Nature Bound Canoes/Outdoors Endeavors (of Fitchburg, MA) listing in the 1989 Canoe Magazine Buyer's Guide. Of their 14 boats listed, two are 16' in length and quite a bit different in width and end depth.

The Whisper II is very narrow. It is 33" width at the molded beam, which doesn't include the outwales and hence would be the center thwart measurement. It's waterline width, measured 4" up from the bottom is 30.5". It's bow/center/stern depths are 18/13.5/18. The bottom shape is a rounded V and it's sides are tumblehomed. It weighs 57 lbs.

The 16' Mill Pond is much wider, and deeper at the ends. It has molded beam and 4" waterline widths of 36.5" (thwart length) and 36". The depths are 21/12.5/20. The bottom shape is shallow arch and the side shape is straight (not tumblehomed or flared). The weight is 69 lbs.

You should be able to figure out which model canoe you have from these specifications.
That’s very good info, thank you so much. I’ll let you know what I find
 
Froggio, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos, and to start threads, in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please add your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.



I found a Nature Bound Canoes/Outdoors Endeavors (of Fitchburg, MA) listing in the 1989 Canoe Magazine Buyer's Guide. Of their 14 boats listed, two are 16' in length and quite a bit different in width and end depth.

The Whisper II is very narrow. It is 33" width at the molded beam, which doesn't include the outwales and hence would be the center thwart measurement. It's waterline width, measured 4" up from the bottom is 30.5". It's bow/center/stern depths are 18/13.5/18. The bottom shape is a rounded V and it's sides are tumblehomed. It weighs 57 lbs.

The 16' Mill Pond is much wider, and deeper at the ends. It has molded beam and 4" waterline widths of 36.5" (thwart length) and 36". The depths are 21/12.5/20. The bottom shape is shallow arch and the side shape is straight (not tumblehomed or flared). The weight is 69 lbs.

You should be able to figure out which model canoe you have from these specifications.
Definitely Mill Pond. 36” wide. Thanks so much.
 
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