The Sharp edge....looking for reason in a fog of fad......

[Glenn MacGrady]

Well, if we're doing videos, here's a guy I like to watch who shows how you can safely split wood with a small forest axe, though perhaps not as quickly as the woman with the stove and the Mora knife.

Note the technique difference between axe splitting and knife batoning. With the head-heavy axe, Hoop splits right down the center of the logs. Batoning with a much lighter knife, you usually split thin slabs off the side of the log.

 

[stripperguy]

Funny, when I use a hatchet to split wood, I usually start the hatchet into the wood, then flip the wood above the hatchet. I use the wood and its mass to do the work for me. Waaaay easier that way...

 

[oldie moldy]

Well, a whole lot of ideas and opinions here and that's fine. We each of us must decide what we want to do for firewood and that's the way it ought to be, with a certainty we will bear the consequences of those decisions.

But I'd really suggest that what ever your system is, that you practice it at home if it's something you're unfamiliar with. Maybe just a afternoon at a picnic area to get the wrinkles out. Or if things go badly wrong, help or replacement is close at hand.

All these opinions and ideas are just "good intentions and wishful thinking" until you can actually put them into practice.

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[HOOP]

Well, a whole lot of ideas and opinions here and that's fine. We each of us must decide what we want to do for firewood and that's the way it ought to be, with a certainty we will bear the consequences of those decisions.

One always bears the consequences of one's own decisions, doesn't one? If the decision involves others who share in the consequences, then its even more cause to think clearly and practice your skills safely.

But I'd really suggest that what ever your system is, that you practice it at home if it's something you're unfamiliar with. Maybe just a afternoon at a picnic area to get the wrinkles out. Or if things go badly wrong, help or replacement is close at hand.

I have practiced many new skills away from home, in the bush, in training sessions being supervised by instructors. As a kid, I went to canoe camp to learn to canoe, use an axe, use a knife, make fires, all away from home and picnic areas. Nothing badly went wrong at all. But as kids, we were supervised. As an adult I have gone into the bush alone many times and practiced new skills with sharps. One must be thoughtful and careful. Nothing wrong with practicing at home either, in fact I support that. Before urbanity became the norm, most kids by age 10-12-ish and early teens were working on the woodpile with saw and axe to feed the home woodstove. Comes a time you have to take off the training wheels and ride. One of the common themes that is taught by all woodcraft/bushcraft instructors that I have been taught by, or listed to on YT, or read their advice in books, is to always have a first aid kit when you head out into the bush. Good advice.

All these opinions and ideas are just "good intentions and wishful thinking" until you can actually put them into practice.

Not sure what you mean. Many of the opinions and ideas generously shared above by folks are the result of their many years of practice and experience with tools and skills, and wanting to pass knowledge on. I did not see any intent to mislead anyone with wishful thinking or false experience. I saw good intentions.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Here's a video showing the use of knife batoning for a purpose other than splitting firewood: using a smaller baton to carve a giant baton. The tools used are a Bahco Laplander folding saw and Buck Punk knife, which has a 5.6" fixed blade.

 

[oldie moldy]

Always nice to hear from you Hoop!
Perhaps I can amplify what I was saying in #44 and answer some of your comments as well.

I've been impressed how very many people, at least click on what we've written in these threads. I might think that I'm just having a chat with my hand full of friends here but a whole bunch more are looking at what is said. I find it just a little frightening what use someone might make of a hasty word.

The world has changed from when I was a pup, the people in it as well. From my view point, I'm surprised how many are strangers to the basic tools that were used nearly daily in the 1940 - 1950's. On a social level, in my opinion, it seems that the idea of personal responsibilities and consequences has really fallen out of favor. All this might make for an interesting discussion but it has an immediate implication if that person is going into the woods.

Your remark about "One always the bears the consequences of one's own decisions, doesn't one?" For you or me that's an "Of course!" but for many that can be a dawning reality.

About that part concerning "practicing at home". When people are strangers to tools and techniques they tend to make mistakes, break things and hurt themselves. I congratulate you on your good fortune in having the amount of support and instruction learning to use tools and all that you did. I doubt if that would be true for many, now a days.
If for example, a saw proves defective or is broken it easily can be replaced from home. A serious cut can be taken to the emergency room for stitches and kept clean with frequent bandage changes easily from home. That degree of care is nearly impossible while camping. Even in the 21th century the danger from infection is as real as it was in times past. And how many days was it back to the take out?

You say "Comes a time you have to take off the training wheels and ride". Quite simply, no you don't. All learning comes in steps, there is no reason to make it a difficult, stress ridden or dangerous experience. Learn at (or near) home in a situation free from the need to produce results immediately, as you would in camping. It could well happen that your first time doing something will be a mess, not to worry, pack it up and go home and think about it. With out pressure, it's probable that where things went wrong will become evident much sooner. There will come a time when you've got the drill down pat, then you're ready for the woods.
About the first-aid kit. I've got one, but let's be realistic, when we're out camping for some days duration, first-aid blends into longer term medical treatment for what ever the problem and the kit is, in all actuality, a gesture in the right direction. Few of us can pack along an E.R. and staff for proper care. I sincerely believe that prevention of accidents beats the best of medical care all hollow.

Now "Good Intentions and wishful thinking"....
Should I decide to learn the piano, I go to the music store and buy a set of forty books "Basic Piano for Dunderheads". As I walk out onto the sidewalk, what I'm holding is "good intentions and wishful thinking". If I ever hope to tap out a tune I must actually practice with a piano. Now, perhaps, try as I might, I find that the Dunderhead set just doesn't work for me and what I needed was the "Dumb as a Stump" set.
That doesn't mean that the author of the Dunderhead set was a dirty rotten rat, it just means that for me it didn't work and I chose not to use it.

As you continue to age Hoop, and I sincerely hope you do, you will find not everyone will be as enamored with some prized bit of advice of yours as you are. It's happened to all of us or will shortly. It's not the end of the world, in fact it's pretty much the way of the world: The older (and we would like to think, wiser) desperately want to lecture and the intended recipients are pretty sure they know better. It happens everywhere, but life goes on.

You say "I did not see any intent to mislead anyone with wishful thinking or false experience". I'm glad, I didn't either. But if in the future we find evidence of such scallywaggery we can join hands and together jump on it!

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

You can split wood without an axe, hatchet or knife. A folding saw can do it (Bahco Laplander).

Like all paddling techniques, I think all wood processing techniques, including all forms of wood splitting, are as ancient as the inventions of the tools themselves. None of these paddling or wood splitting techniques is modern, so I don't think of any of them as modern fads.

If YouTube was around in the Stone Age, I'm sure there would be zillions of videos of people splitting kindling by batoning a flint blade. In the Iron Age, I'm sure we would see them batoning firewood with kitchen knives or fighting swords or whatever edge they had. Fire starting was a daily necessity for life.

 

[oldie moldy]

Great video Glenn! Obviously you're right about wood splitting being an old and very necessary need. And I can certainly see during some emergency using the kitchen knife or sword or battle axe or come to that, Uncle Urk's head to provide the necessary fuel.

I remember a bit from " A Distant Mirror" something about although we note the plagues and battles of the middle ages in Europe there were long periods of time where the life in rural places marched to the slow, steady, pulse of the seasons. The local church and the blacksmith provided a nucleus for village life. That blacksmith produced what the locals requested. Perhaps it wouldn't be too far off the mark to say it was an early research and development process.

So...from thousands of villages, over centuries, what's come down to us as the proven method to split wood into useable size for the hearth fire? The Froe! It's a tool that can be used all day and take no hurt from being pounded into the wood with the batton.
Now the villager didn't use it to cut his bread, pare off a slice of cheese, trim his toe nails. Nope! he had tools at his disposal that worked better for those tasks and he used them. And need I add, the kitchen knife didn't get snapped off, the man-at-arms sword didn't get bent and the battle axe didn't split some unwary foot.

So, coming full circle in this thread: I lament the "modern" fadish attempt to make a knife into some sort of b*st*rdized froe. In the process they have lost the best qualities of the knife and it still isn't up the the simple froe in the ability to split wood.

Now, I have no doubt that soon I'll be able to look on U-tube and see somebody using an exacto blade to split off tooth picks off a dry straight grain block of wood. Well good for them and nice work! But that isn't the tool for hundreds of hands who need to split wood for their campfire.

I can still remember from my childhood; looking down at my toes while some adult berated me over some mess I'd made, tool I'd injured, wood I'd wasted. "Damnit Boy!! you've been told many times; Use the right tool for the job! And take care of that tool!"
How I escaped being drowned in the rain barrel as a dang nuisance, I'll never know.

But their words still ring true today: "Use the right tool for the job and take care of that tool".

Thanks again for the video,
Best Wishes, Rob

 

[Rippy]

I don't think people are saying that battening won't work. I think some just think it is a strange thing to rely on it, when tools designed for processing firewood have been around for a long time. I'm not a fan of transferring backpacking theory into canoeing. Canoeing, is , after all, usually mostly canoeing.

I think there is definitely a divide in canoe tripping styles, but it doesn't have to divide us. I lean toward Mem's style of tripping. Take everything you want for comfort or need to use and grunt it across the portages. I think of my canoe (a tandem that I solo in) as a pick up truck. This year I replaced my hatchet with a forest axe and take a folding bow saw. I could make do with out them if they got lost somehow. I would just adapt and get by. I am fine with adapting on the spot if need be. I got nothing against batoning and would do it if I needed to. I just don't plan on needing to.

Some go much lighter in sportier canoes and plan trip routes in the Adirondacks where walking sometimes seems to almost equal paddling for miles made in a day. This style seems to barrow some from backpacking. That's just fine, I enjoy the TR's and pictures. It's not for me though.

Some take trips in more jungle'y looking areas. Depending on the undergrowth or ground cover a machete might be the go to tool to make camp.

We are all coming from different points of reference and experience. Lots of good points have been made but I think we should just move on. Dave

 

[Odyssey]

The line dividing utility and futility has faded to fuzzy over the last little while for me. Reading posts here has helped me with reassessing my own tripping needs, and helped me make choices by focusing on what our future trips will look like and how we'll function. Confused yet? Don't be. There's been many canoetrippers out there who've given me much to think about. I thank you all for that.
This morning over coffee I asked my wife what she'd want in a blade and how she'd use it. Two simple questions that have lead to long pondering for me, but not this morning. Not for her. She said she'd never needed an every day carry (EDC), seeing as how she never involves herself with camp set up, only cooking for the most part. "An EDC folder might be good to have though". As far as cooking, she'd rather a chef type knife be in the kitchen pack "Not one of my good ones from home!! And not a fiddly little paring knife." Okay, that sounds faddish, but she really likes to prep fresh food at the beginning of a trip, the first few days before digging into dehydrated menus. That means a sturdy santuko type fixed blade with high viz and light handle, and inexpensive, for her. I on the other hand am preferring a folder on my hip, and a fixed blade on my pack. I might employ the fixed for wood processing, we'll see. I won't stop bringing my axe, and am considering stashing my hatchet in our generously sized emergency bag. I won't eschew comfort. We're not trying to prove anything to anyone out there, just getting away from it all and "doing it style"...our own "style". What we choose in gear items and how we use them might insult traditionalists and uber modernists alike. That's okay. We've spent years and trips thinking about choices, and rethinking "final" decisions. I started with "lots and heavy" and swung towards "less and light" as far as gear choices go. I'm settling somewhere in the middle now. I love comfort, but crave simplicity. If there were a super duper lightweight canoe trippers' Lazy- boy out there somewhere, I swear I'd be oggling and Googling right now. In the meantime, I'm focusing on our own canoe tripping needs, and trying to see past the fuzzy line separating need from unnecessary. I truly believe we draw our own lines in the sand of reason, and that's good. Because I'm forever smudging mine out and redrawing it, season after season, trip after trip.

ps I'm looking forward to a certain rain barrel story from somebody someday.

ps encore Maybe someday, someday someone will come out with a Star Wars light sabre about 8" long, that'll fit in an awesome looking leather sheath. And naturally the light sabre will have a curly birch handle. Okay, now I'm daydreaming again.

 

[oldie moldy]

"But I think we should just move on"...........well said Dave and thanks for the nudge in the right direction.

Rob

 

[HOOP]

Here is the wonderful Ray Mears, bushcraft/woodcraft master and instructor, film and documentary maker, world traveler exploring and documenting traditional bush skills, and all around gentleman and nice guy, with another beautiful and entertaining film "Four Seasons in Britain". For our little topic here of the OP, at video time mark 50:30, starts his little historical anecdote (involving Queen Vic Herself), about lighting fires in a wet wood environment. Ray did not happen to have his trusty froe on him, so he used his knife and a baton to split out some dry wood and boil up a cuppa tea, no muss, no fuss, and lamentation-free. Hot tea on a cold wet day - wonderful!
Enjoy

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Now here's a YouTube fad based on wood splitting and batoning -- almost 13 million views and 14 thousand comments: the Swedish fire torch.

Wood products needed: quarter split log, finely split tinder sticks, bark shavings, and some additional tinder. Note that after cooking the noodles, the boy picks up the Swedish fire torch and moves it.

With the Swedish fire torch we can abandon all our heavy and klutzy stoves, gas canisters, fire boxes, grills and grates. Having saved that weight, we could take three tools to process the wood products needed to make the torch. But I'm sure it can be done with only two.

 

[memaquay]

Just a personal observation...most of these "bushcraft" gurus generate a very negative feeling in me. I can't explain it. Perhaps its the didactic lecturing tone in their voice. The only one I ever found enjoyable was Les Stroud of Survivorman fame. The reason I liked him was because he was not afraid to make mistakes and show them on air. He tested a lot of the common bush lore to see if it were true. I remember the episode where he tried to eat the roots of cat tails and puked his guts out.

It seems to me that many of the bushcraft fellows are professing a series of skills that are a code to live buy, when in reality, most of what they teach is emergency preparedness, things that one would use in a pinch, but certainly not something that someone who wanted to live comfortably in the bush for a period of time would chose. Faced with a choice of having a hair shirt, a knife and a tin cup or a fully outfitted kit, most people will take the kit every time.

Back to Les Stroud....he usually staged each one of his shows as an emergency situation, and used human ingenuity to try to overcome the odds. He wasn't always successful. I like that, it appeals to me.

 

[Alan Gage]

I figure the only reason any of us, regular canoe trippers and survivalists alike, are doing any of what we do is because it's a fun hobby for us. Hundreds of generations have figured out the easiest and most efficient means to heat your home and food and it doesn't involve an axe, knife, or even firewood. It's nothing more than pushing a button for the vast majority of us. So since canoe tripping and camping in the woods is nothing more than a hobby all that matters is that it makes you happy.

Many members here want nothing more than to travel in a wood canvas canoe. I have no desire to do so but that's ok for both of us. They're happy paddling their canoe and are comfortable accepting it's advantages/disadvantages, just as I am with the canoes I paddle. If carrying an axe into the woods makes you happy then go for it. If you derive pleasure from doing all your wood processing with a 4" knife then more power to ya. It's not a matter of life or death for any of us, just fun.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

these "bushcraft" gurus

Mors Kochanski is not a TV or YouTube creation. He's taught bushcraft and wilderness survival for more than 40 years at universities and to the military and written many books.

This is a video of him doing the most practical thing of all, the crucial thing in common with emergency situations, canoe tripping and everyday simple camping: how to start a fire under adverse wet conditions.

He ends up picking too hard a tree, but his method was unfamiliar to me. He wants to featherstick the interior of an upright dead tree in situ, not cutting it down. He would then light the feathers with a steel, transfer the fire to a bundle of sticks held in his hand, and then carry that over to the fire place where three logs await ignition by the burning bush.

Because the tree he picks it too hard -- and perhaps because the Mora knife he's using is too weak -- he has to resort to knife batoning to slice off exterior wood to get to the interior, which also turns out to be too hard. So he feathersticks his baton.

Can an axe make the four curl feathers that Kochanski demands? I don't know, but I bet there's guru-ism about it on YouTube.

 

[Philtrum]

Another way to split wood using a saw is:
1. Cut a wedge from the end of a log or branch. It should be about 8"-12" long, a few inches wide, and 2"-3" on the thick end.
2. Cut a wedge (the "female" wedge, if you will) out of the end of the log you want to split. The first cut should be 4"-6" deep. The second cut should be an inch or so wide and 2"-3" deep. The resulting triangular space should be big enough to admit about a third of the "male" wedge.
3. Find or cut a basher (as I prefer to call it, otherwise known as a baton). Insert the "male" part as nature intended and bash it with the basher.

It's a bit tedious but it works. It works even better if the "male" wedge is hardwood.

 

[memaquay]

Interesting video, which really just confirms my opinion that axes are better for fire starting. We have a lot of aspen and poplar up here too, and generally speaking, it is the wood of last choice for fire making. Dry standing jackpine is king for bush fire starting. I have never made a feather stick, but I think I will attempt it now, and teach it to the kids, as it seems like a good way to make them sit still for an hour or so, and of course all kids are pyromaniacs.

 

[Guest]

Wood splitting knife

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

An old authority declares that knife batoning is verboten, verboten, verboten.