Design advice sought for expedition solo

[Alan Gage]

I've got a big trip in mind for this coming summer. It might happen and it might not, but hopefully it will. Step one will be designing and building a canoe for the task at hand. The task would be canoeing the length of the Bloodvein River in Ontario and Manitoba. And when I reach the end turning around and paddling back the way I came. It's 185 miles each way. I figure it would take about a month, which would be the biggest obstacle to making it happen.

Sounds like I can expect a lot of class I and II rapids with a fair number of portages around anything bigger than a relatively straight forward class II. Large capacity will be needed to carry that much gear and food while running some rapids but I'd like some nimbleness for getting through rapids and I'll need speed and efficiency for turning around and coming back upstream, plus a lot of lake travel as I cross WCPP. I plan on outfitting it with a rudder, mainly for upstream travel.

I was hoping to get by with a 16' hull but after playing around a little with the design the other night it looks like I'll probably need to go longer to get the necessary capacity and buoyancy. I'm thinking I'd tip the scales at around 350 pounds; 50lb. boat, 30lb. dog, 165lb. me, and 100lbs. of gear and food.

I know a lot of you out there have a lot more experience in rivers and adventures like this so I'd welcome any input on similar travels you've taken and any boat designs you think might be suited to the task.

Alan

 

[memaquay]

I don't know much about the Bloodvein other than the trip reports I have read. Are you sure you will be able to travel back up stream? I can think of many trips I have taken in my area on similar type rivers where sections of it would be very difficult if not impossible. However, many of these rivers were poled upstream in the past, which might be something for you to consider.

As far as a canoe, you're probably going to want a different design from the kind you have been building. Some rocker would be nice. If you are only going to shoot C2's, you don't need an excessive amount, but a couple of inches in a symmetrical canoe, or 3 aft and and inch or two forward in an asymmetrical design. In a symmetrical design, a Chestnut Pal style would be a good large solo that would handle your load. In asymmetrical, I can't think of many boats that exist that would be up for the task. The Raven, one of the biggest, river type tripping canoes out there would probably handle your load. I routinely trip with a load similar to what you would be carrying. Plans are available from Greenval.com, although not advertised, they will print them for you or give you the design CD.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've had a hard time finding out how swift the current is on the Bloodvein but I think it would be doable, though I'd have to portage a lot more rapids going up than down. Much of the river is lake to lake travel in WCPP and Atikaki and it sounds like even after that, when it's more of an actual river, it's still mostly pool and drop. In Hap Wilson's book he makes mention that one of the probable reasons for it being used so much historically was the ability for both up and downstream travel.

I've been thinking about the Raven as I know you're quite fond of it. Sure does look like a big boat in the picture. How wide is it? Length? I don't worry too much about coming up with something that can handle the load and river going downstream. My biggest problem might be finding something that can handle the load AND has enough speed to make upstream progress at more than a snail's pace. A narrow paddling station would come in handy there, but not so much for the other criteria it has to meet. I'm not used to carrying that much load so don't know how much it will affect speed either. There will certainly be a lot of test paddling this spring on local rivers in different boats, full loaded, to see how they respond. There will be some poling practice too. Maybe I should pick up a beater royalex hull for that.

Alan

 

[Mihun09]

Yes, most rivers here in Manitoba are pool and drop and current will depend on water levels mostly. I have the entire rivers topo maps on my computer and just added up all the rapids and falls marked from the Man/Ontario border to Lake Winnipeg. 68 rapids/falls.

This should take you to the gauge on the River. http://wateroffice.ec.gc.ca/report/report_e.html?type=realTime&stn=05RB003&prm1=3&prm2=-1

We do regularly travel upstream on rivers here, but they are generally smaller than the Bloodvein. I'm sure you have read your fill of trip reports at MyCCR on the river so you likely have the most update information.

You might want to give yourself more than a month for this epic adventure.

 

[memaquay]

I have gone upstream with the Raven on many rivers. However, if making time is your prime concern, you might want to look at a different hull. It's too wide to comfortably switch sides, although i do have short arms. I think mine is around 30 inches at the gunwales. I usually paddle heeled over. Many folks complain about the Raven being a dog for speed, but the cedarstrip version is actually not bad. Of course, it will feel like a bathtub compared to the skinny liitle canoes you have been paddling, but that bathtub feeling might come in handy when you are running some of those rapids.

I'm not racing when I paddle, but I'm not a slouch either. I usually average between 6 and 7 k an hour with the Raven while tripping. When I paddled the Osprey, I was averaging a solid 7 k an hour......that's over the course of a day. So there is a difference.

You might want to have a look at the Shearwater too. Longer and narrower than the Raven, and one of the bigger boats out there, probably more friendly for the upstream side of things. The difference would be that I could pole in the Raven if i had too, not so sure about the Shearwater.

 

[Alan Gage]

Yes, most rivers here in Manitoba are pool and drop and current will depend on water levels mostly. I have the entire rivers topo maps on my computer and just added up all the rapids and falls marked from the Man/Ontario border to Lake Winnipeg. 68 rapids/falls.

This should take you to the gauge on the River. http://wateroffice.ec.gc.ca/report/report_e.html?type=realTime&stn=05RB003&prm1=3&prm2=-1

We do regularly travel upstream on rivers here, but they are generally smaller than the Bloodvein. I'm sure you have read your fill of trip reports at MyCCR on the river so you likely have the most update information.

You might want to give yourself more than a month for this epic adventure.

Thanks for the river gauge link. Do you have any frame of reference for different flow levels? Like, XX meters is really rockin' and rollin' or XX meters you're going to be doing a lot of dragging. I don't remember coming across much about this in trip reports, or maybe I just didn't notice.

I've been seeing a lot of people say 2 weeks to do the river downstream from Red Lake, which has made me wonder if it might take more than a month too. Based on just water miles it should be a snap but I tend to forget about all the portaging that will really slow things down. I do like to cover miles when I'm on the water however and most days don't like to set up camp until early evening. I think I can keep it open ended though so if it takes a bit longer it wouldn't be the end of the world....provided I have enough food.

What does everyone think about stern height? I've never seen a use for having much of it in my normal paddling, flatwater, and have preferred boats with low stern height to lessen the effects of windage. I suppose it would really come into play if you got turned around in a rapid. How much does it come into play otherwise when running rapids up to CII?

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I have gone upstream with the Raven on many rivers. However, if making time is your prime concern, you might want to look at a different hull. It's too wide to comfortably switch sides, although i do have short arms. I think mine is around 30 inches at the gunwales.

That was one of my concerns, how easy it would be to switch sides and how much of a reach it would be. I do have fairly long arms though and if I was using a rudder to keep a straight course switching sides efficiently wouldn't be so important.

I'm not racing when I paddle, but I'm not a slouch either. I usually average between 6 and 7 k an hour with the Raven while tripping. When I paddled the Osprey, I was averaging a solid 7 k an hour......that's over the course of a day. So there is a difference.

Good to have some numbers. I know that I certainly don't paddle has hard when tripping as when just out for my normal day paddles. I figured just over 7km/h (4.4mph) would be about the most I could expect for a sustained speed if I got the right hull. When the water thaws I can load up my Kite (Osprey) and see how it does.

You might want to have a look at the Shearwater too. Longer and narrower than the Raven, and one of the bigger boats out there, probably more friendly for the upstream side of things. The difference would be that I could pole in the Raven if i had too, not so sure about the Shearwater.

I came across that a couple days ago. Looks like a nice boat. Good capacity and should be should be fairly quick.

Thanks.

Alan

 

[stripperguy]

Alan,
Some extra height at the stern (and even amidship) can be a good thing.
Here is my buddy's boat, you can see his relatively tall stems...



And here he is running through one of the sets of milder rapids



Doesn't look so bad, right?? Well, right after that last photo, he got spun in the next drop drop (zero rocker!!) and swamped with the waves coming over the side. If he had just another inch or two of freeboard, he would have been fine.
I would trade a dryer, safer ride for a mph or two speed differential any day. I know not of your intended river route, but some of the spots I frequent would be very, uhmmm, uncomfortable, if I lost my gear or broke my boat.

 

[Mihun09]

Alan,

I would trade a dryer, safer ride for a mph or two speed differential any day. I know not of your intended river route, but some of the spots I frequent would be very, uhmmm, uncomfortable, if I lost my gear or broke my boat.

Once he leaves Red Lake and gets into WCPP, all the way to Bloodvein Village is complete isolation. The only road is down the end near the Village. There is no walking out. Helicopter only for most of it, which also means SatPhone.

Alan, if you go over to MyCCR and message Paddle Power, he likely can give you the best information on water levels based on the gauge. Last Fall we had excess rainfall and most rivers were running close to Spring levels. The Bloodvein is less prone to drying up like other rivers here because it begins in Ontario. But if Ontario is having a dry season and so are we... you get the idea.

Karin

 

[Iskweo]

Verrrry good point SG. That sort of country is not a good place to take chances with marginal equipment. At the very least you would need to take a good repair kit with you just in case. There is the thing with being windbound or storm bound too you know. It may not be all nice paddling weather. Plan on a three week trip, one way, and enjoy yourself.

So, not to be negative, but the boat is the least of your worries.Travelling solo means you are on your own...being prepared is best. So have contingency plans for an altered trip if necessary. If karin and I are not out on the water ourselves we might be able to do a resupply for you at the bridge near the end of the Bloodvein. The road goes right to Bloodvein now. That could reduce your load and free up more options for you. There is always the possibility of a shuttle back to Red Lake if things go awry also or you just want to do one way. Options options options.

Get the dehydrator cranked up and see if you can borrow a royalex boat for this one. Failing that, run way less rapids with a lighter boat that carries easily. It sounds like a great trip and one that I have wanted to do but may be out of reach for me now.

You know, you can leave out of Wallace Lake MB and go either up the Broadleaf and through Aikens Lake to the Bloodvein or east to Obukowin and then up the Gammon and over to Aikens and out to the big lake. They are some pretty challenging routes too.

However it turns out...make the trip. You wont be sorry.

Christy

 

[memaquay]

The thing about asymmetrical hulls, which i think is where you are going, is eddying out and backferrying. When you are not loaded down, it's not that much of a problem, but with a full load, eddying out can be sluggish, and back ferrying can be very difficult at best. However, if most rapids can be scouted and a continuous line can be picked, those two particular skills are not as crucial.

The other thing to keep in mind...I don't know how well used this river is, but in our area, ports that are indicated on maps are really more fantasy than reality. It's something to ponder. The other thing to keep in mind is that if upstream travel becomes to difficult, don't count on bushwacking. "The bush, she be tick" as my French buddy says.

 

[memaquay]

Not sure if you have read this guy's trip report, but it is most excellent!
http://albinger.me/2014/08/24/canoeing-the-bloodvein-river-system-maps-planning/

 

[LF_tripper]

Good advise here. My 2 cents is not to run rapids in anything but a royalex canoe. It is just too risky. What if your dog had to walk all the way back to the truck!

Also, if you want to do a loop try the Gammon one way and the Bloodvein the other. That could be done in a month, and you could have a few down days. There is so much to see, stop and smell the roses.

As far as canoe design, everything is a compromise as you know. My 16 foot custom kevlar has 3/4" stern rocker and 1 1/4" bow rocker. It is 28" at the 4" line and 30" max, with tumblehome so it is 25" wide where I sit. It is 13" deep. I am about your size at 170 lbs. and usually travel with 50-75 Lbs of gear. To me it is the perfect design for WCPP and the rivers, with the right speed, tracking, and maneuverability on rivers. However, it has a permanent back seat and is convertable to a tandem. I took it as a tandem on a 2 week trip 2 years ago with a total load of about 400 lbs. It was great even in waves and wind, just had to keep the head between the gunnels.

I know canoe design is your interest and you are very good at it, but Iskweo is right, the "the boat is the least of your worries". There is a reason the old timers paddled prospectors.

 

[memaquay]

I would respectively debate running in rapids in anything but royalex. With proper skills and judgements, and a well built cedar strip, most rapids runnable by an open canoe can be done. My stripper Raven has logged many 1000's of kilometers of river running, and before that, my cedarstrip Osprey did the same. I have more confidence in my cedarstrips than I do in other composites, such as kevlar.

However, they must be built for the beating, which precludes having the typical light weight build. Two layers of glass on the bottom, six ounce cloth, full strength gunwales, no corner cutting. One should still be able to build a large solo at around 50 pounds.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Don't know about a DIY design, but the far-and-away best design I've ever seen for solo tripping on Canadian rivers (up to class 3) and lakes is the Hemlock SRT. It was specifically designed for that purpose by Harold Deal, who has tripped all over the world solo, who is one of the most decorated U.S. whitewater champions, and who was also one of the founding influences on what is now call freestyle canoeing.

The SRT is capacious, fast on the flats, confident in rapids, and can be paddled from the kneel (primarily) or as a sit 'n switch boat (tenderly). Here are the specs:

http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/srt.html

Here, via Conk's photography, is a unique picture of my white SRT along with Conk's and Harold's in the Jersey Pine Barrens.

 

[LF_tripper]

"I would respectively debate running in rapids in anything but royalex. With proper skills and judgements, and a well built cedar strip, most rapids runnable by an open canoe can be done."


That royalex solo rapid running opinion is just my 2 cents.
Just because I wouldn't do it or recommend it doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. I won't bore this thread with stories of gear lost and canoes twisted on the Gammon and Bloodvein. Caution is never a bad thing.

 

[Guest]

I don't know if plans are available for a SRT or Dragonfly which I think would be possibilities,would you copy one? Tweak it? Another canoe that came to mind for your trip is the Osprey. I Know plans are available for them.
Turtle

 

[Alan Gage]

Lots of great discussion here. There certainly are a lot of things to worry about other than the canoe but the trip is still a long ways off and it's too dark to play outside so why not spend it designing and building? That will give me plenty of time to attempt a 2nd design if the first should prove unworthy come spring and give me plenty of time to test paddle it loaded during the summer. I appreciate the advice about going with Royalex but at this point I'm pretty set on doing it in something I designed and built, for better or worse. But, while I might not be the brightest bulb, I'm no fool either. If I'm not confident in the boat I either won't take it or I'll alter my trip.

I'm not set on an asymmetrical design but that is the way I tend to lean since it's what I'm most familiar with. With the upstream component I'll probably be forced to go that way for the efficiency. Lots of playing around to do on the computer and test packing some loads to see how much room I'll need for gear and where it will fit best.

As others have pointed out there are lots of other options in the area. I can turn around at any time and start heading back upstream if it's looking like it will take too long or the going will be too difficult to retrace. That's one of the reasons I'm trying not to use a fly-in or shuttle service, so that I can change plans on the fly without messing someone else up or having to be at a specific place at a specific time. That and because I can't justify spending the $$$$.

From everything I've read the river is traveled enough that portage routes around pretty much all the rapids are well established.

One of the first thoughts I had, after learning of the newly completed road to Bloodvein village, was to use that as my put-in and do the upstream leg of the trip first. That way if it proved too long or difficult it would be all downstream back to the car. I'd thought it would be a lot more driving that way and was surprised when I just checked Google Maps to find that it was only a few miles longer and less estimated time. It's a more direct route than Red Lake. Perhaps I'll have to rethink that idea again.

It would be nice to head upstream with a less than full load though and I've got a couple friends I asked to see if one of them would like to start the trip in Red Lake with me and then they can fly out at Artery Lake and the plane can fly me in a little food drop at the same time. I'd take two canoes up, a solo and tandem, and the plane can fly in the solo and fly out the tandem with my friend.

Has anyone here been to Bloodvein village? In trip reports I've read everything from a quaint little village that wants to cater to paddlers and make them feel welcome to a drug and alcohol addicted population that made the paddlers very anxious to leave. Now that there's a road is there any sort of grocery store where I could resupply? Any place in town where I could park my car for a month if I decided to make that my starting point?

Thanks for the offer of a possible food drop or shuttle at Bloodvein village. I'll certainly keep that in mind.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I don't know if plans are available for a SRT or Dragonfly which I think would be possibilities,would you copy one? Tweak it? Another canoe that came to mind for your trip is the Osprey. I Know plans are available for them.
Turtle

I wouldn't want to copy someone else's boat but it's nice to look at dimensions for purpose designed boats to get a starting point and to find reviews of what people like and dislike about them. I've already got a Kite (Osprey) that I built a few years ago but I've never paddled it loaded. I'm interested to see how it does this spring when I load it up for a test. I'm mostly worried that with the dog there just won't be enough room for everything.

Alan

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Oh, the dog. I forgot.

I've never tripped with any of my many dogs and wouldn't want to for multiple reasons on a wilderness trip. However, if that were a requirement, I wouldn't want to be in my SRT or any dedicated solo canoe with some big honker canine flailing away while I'm trying to negotiate wind, waves or rapids.

With a dog, I'd only consider some pretty stable tandem canoe design. There are dozens of those that could work just fine. I'll lend you one of mine, occupants included: