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Use of Non-standard glass fabrics

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Most of the canoe builds that you see around are based on the old reliable 6oz. and 4oz. plain weave e-glass fabrics. Has anyone experimented with other glass options?
We sometimes see various twill fabrics listed, usually in heavier weights.

Browsing the Raka site, I found something called "style 120," which has a rather intriguing description. It is a tight weave fabric. On further research, I've found that this fabric is what is known as a "4 harness satin" and is supposed to maintain much higher strength for E-glass, as the fibers are not bent back and forth as often as they are in plain weave fabrics. The smoother surface also creates a weave pattern that does not take nearly as much resin to fill, and the tight weave will result in a higher glass to resin ratio. Its actually supposed to be mil-spec for aerospace applications.

The fabric is variously listed as anywhere from 3 to 3.5 oz weight, depending on who weighed it, and Raka is one of the few retailers that try to stock it in something wider than 38" They are currently out of stock, but state that they are trying to bring it back soon.

This sort of sounds ideal for a light strip build, if one is willing to use double layers as appropriate.

Has anyone tried this stuff out, and if so, what is it like? Raka claims that it is harder to wet out and to lay into complex shapes than a 6oz plain. Other sources repeat the note about the wet-out, due to the tight weave, but claim that it drapes more easily than standard cloths. They claim that it tends to fray along cut edges, but that could be dealt with by taping before one cuts.

Any other unusual e-glass fabrics that you have used? What strengths and weakness have you found?
 
I think I used that similar cloth from Thayer craft, it was harder to wetout but used much less epoxy. I used maybe two gallons for a 17 foot seakayak. with two layers of cloth pretty much everywhere. The fill coat used hardly any epoxy because the weave was so flat. I wish I bought an extra 50 yds or so!!

The wetout issue can be addressed by working in a 75-80 degree shop, makes a big difference.
 
Sounds interesting. Were those two layers separate wet-out sessions, or were they double-stacked? I'd probably use a fairly low-viscosity resin to begin with, and Raka recommends using a slotted roller for wet out.

I'm wondering if adding peelply might generate a one-step surface that only requires a light skim coat to reach finish quality?

ThayerCraft sells exclusively through eBay now, and in their ads, I found an explanation for the differing reports on drapeability:
Apparently, it comes down to the surface treatment. Cloth treated with Volan (for polyester compatibility) tends to be much stiffer than plain glass or silane (epoxy only) coatings. They're only selling larger roll quantities, and the price is a bit... ouch...

I did find some listed on a website that I do not recognize, for $3.99 a yard. (Clearance) However, the site just does not feel right to me, and they do not specify the coating types.
 
I did the two layers in separate sessions, I used progressive polymers basic no blush epoxy for that build. I've never used a slotted roller, always a squeegee, works well and doesn't leave any extra epoxy. I called Thayercraft directly, he was very helpful and looked around his warehouse for the fiberglass I could use in the qty. I needed.

The glass I used was 3.2oz #1678 cloth I don't think you can get it from Thayercraft anymore. It was a great deal at $2/yard.

http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2256#p23647
 
Hmm... I can't find any current carriers of #1678, but one reference work shows it to be a fairly typical plain-weave cloth. I suspect that most of your trouble with wetout was due to the thicker epoxy that you were using. (BTW, how does anyone handle the Progressive Polymers website? Major Eye-Bleed going on here!
 
There are a couple of non-standard glass and etc materials I would love to find a source for. First among them , S-glass tape.

I have the wee remain of a roll of 1 inch very fine weave satin-like S-glass tape from a shop visitor who worked in the aerospace industry. Coulda shoulda taken two rolls when he offered. He had a full sleeve of them. That stuff is awesome.

I have called every FRP supplier I could Google find and no one carries it anymore. Many of them do remember it “Oh, yeah, we had some of that like 10 years ago. I think it was something used in, like, aviation or sumptin”.

I really like the easy end cuts and no frayed edges aspect with selvage edge tapes, especially for long linear uses, and peel ply knocks down the otherwise raspy seamed edge low and flat.

Kevlar tape? Carbon tape? Some weird arse “twill” tape? Dynel tape would be the bomb for keel strips and narrow skid plates.

There has to be better selvage edge tape than E-glass.

No?
 
The more I look at it, the more that I want to give some 120 cloth a try. ThayerCraft currently has a 100 yd roll for sale. I contacted him, asking about possibilities for smaller quantities... and sort of got laughed at. I think that he was having a rough day, And based on some of his comments, I think that he did not realize that I was looking at a strip-build.
 
On a similar subject, has anyone done side-by-side comparisons of Dynel vs Xynole vs cheap polyester fleece for a skid plate? Assume peel-ply over the surface, and appropriate cover coloration.
 
I've worked with Dynel and Xynole (Raka) and can't tell a difference. I've never used fleece but I believe that's what Jim Dodd has used on a couple of his. The only thing I don't like about the fleece is the bulk, though that would certainly help with wearability.

Alan
 
Yep !
Fleece builds bulk, like Kevlar felt, the advantage, beside cost, fleece is machinable.
Say you want to install a Kevlar skid plate. Use sweat shirt fleece 100% Polyester.
You can get it in a variety of colors, you can sand it, once it's cured, and it's tough !
Not as tough as Kevlar, but I intentionally abuse the fleece, and so far has held up great !
I'll probably never use Kevlar felt again !
IMG_0941_zpsuomvdl9a.jpg


I have the fleece in black and tan to match my carbon fiber, and my strippers.

Jim
 
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Wow, that's crazy that actually works. Do you think fleece would work on a royalex canoe too if I used g-flex epoxy?
 
Wow, that's crazy that actually works. Do you think fleece would work on a royalex canoe too if I used g-flex epoxy?

I haven't worked with G-flex. I'd try a test, to see if the G-flex will wet out the polyester. If it does, I'd say it should work !

I would also guess the fleece would wear better than the Royalex. Again a test would be in order.

Jim
 
I may go with that.... Jim Dodd, how well would you think fleece would take to being green-trimmed? I'm thinking of masking off an area, laying the fleece so that it overlaps, and then trimming to the mask line with a razor knife before full cure. I'd probably use wysedav's chalk-colored epoxy trick, and then even up the color coverage with my topcoat, if necessary.

I'm also a little surprised by the placement in your example. I would not be worried about the upper part of the stem so much, but would want my rub coverage to extend down the hull another 18" or so, perhaps widening to match the shape of the football. Am I missing something obvious here?
 
I may go with that.... Jim Dodd, how well would you think fleece would take to being green-trimmed?

I'm also a little surprised by the placement in your example. I would not be worried about the upper part of the stem so much, but would want my rub coverage to extend down the hull another 18" or so, perhaps widening to match the shape of the football. Am I missing something obvious here?

The fleece should trim good, as long as you did it, in the green stage (12 hrs or so)

I wasn't totally happy with the appearance, of the fleece all the way up to the shear, but for sure, it won't come undone ! Again you can adjust the skid plate thickness to suit, unlike Kevlar fleece.

Jim
 
I will certainly keep that in mind! That, or a yard of Xynole is not that much, if I buy at the same time as my resin.
 
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