Solo daytripper - design ideas

[sailsman63]

My last strip build was intended as a sort of all-around canoe for the sort of things that I expected to do, both solo and tandem. During the design discussion I was told by a couple of people that I would probably be happier with two boats - a solo, and a tandem. After a summer with "The Experiment" I can say that they were right.

My tandem is just too big for one smallish guy (<150#) to handle as a day-tripper. The things that I've run into on daytrips with no/light load are as follows:

• Directional stability: She likes to turn. Doesn't seem to matter which direction, what type of paddle stroke, etc.
• Windage: Not nearly as bad as my first canoe, but any sort of starting-to-be-stiff-ish breeze will send her skittering
• Trim: as much as I've tried, I've not been able to get comfortable sitting center in a hull sized as a tandem. It's certainly doable, but not great. I've been running with the hull reversed, from the front seat, but in that position, I need a 50# bag of ballast along.
• Hull efficiency: perhaps more subjective, but this hull seems to gain a lot of resistance if I ever try to do a short sprint, and the wake it leaves seems more turbulent than my previous hulls

I believe that the first and fourth are due to more rounded stem entries, and therefore a blunter hull plan - I was used to a canoe with a very fine, deep forefoot, but the last boat had tended to 'trip' on chop, etc.

1-3 settle down considerably when I add another person, and I imagine that with a couple of weeks worth of gear, she'd be fairly comfortable as a tripping solo. As a Tandem, I'm fairly happy with her. However, I don't want to carry 200# of ballast just to do a short day-paddle, which accounts for most of my paddling time.

There are a few things that do like, though:

• Good balance in roll-direction stability. The flared hull shape lets me stand in the unloaded canoe, and I could paddle it SUP style if I wanted to.
• Conversely, It takes very little effort to quickly roll all the way to a gunwale, if desired, but removing your lean will bring it right back up.
• Pick a heel angle, any heel angle, and settle in to paddle.
• Knuckled tumblehome allows me to have the flared shape for the wetted hull, but eases reach for paddling nearer center.

This past summer, I've also had a bit of a chance to figure out what I like to do in a canoe. I'm a curious person, who likes finding tight, narrow, twisty channels that lead off to who knows where, and enjoy sticking my nose in places that most boats can't go.

Given all of this, I'd like to build a dedicated solo something like this:

• 150# paddler plus day gear or a very light weekend kit.
• Good tracking, I'm comfortable heeling over when I want to turn hard...
• Balanced with a soft enough forefoot that it can handle some chop or riffles without stubbing its toe.
• Lower profile to reduce windage. I'd rarely, if ever, be out on big water. I'd be willing to consider a canvas spray cover for the times when I would be.
• Paddler's station narrow enough to use a double blade easily.
• Shallow draft

I'm aware that some of these wants may conflict and require balancing or making a decision about which is more important, but given this, do any ideas or specific existing designs come to mind? I'm open to paying for a license on a plan that meets my needs, or I may do what I've done before, and play around with ideas until I'm satisfied.

I'm also sorely tempted to go to the dark side, and build <a kayak>, (Nick Schade has some lovely boats that are just begging to be built) But I figured I should see what's available in the open-boat world before committing.

 

[Jim Dodd]

There are several canoes that fit your bill.

I would say choose a solo plan of 15'-15 1/2' in length max. Tumble home, absolutely !
I really love my Pearl, but if you could find a set of Bruce Kunz's Merlin plans, you would not need to look any farther. Bruce's Merlin has what I'd call racing stems. near vertical. I would rocker them a little, for perfection.

If you like a double paddle, sit in the bottom, I'd instantly pick Mac McCarthy's Wee Lassie II, before a kayak ! So much easier to build, and easier to get in and out of. It can also be single blade paddled, The Lassie tracks very well, and can handle moderate white water and stay dry.
Not to mention they make great wall hangers. Three of mine, serve that dual purpose by their current owners.

Just two that I'd build.

Look at Northwest Canoe. Dennis has several worth looking at, and you can't beat the price !

Keep us posted !

At least you have some experience under your belt !

Jim

 

[yellowcanoe]

No need to to long for a day tripper. Height not weight is more important in determining the width of boat suitable for you. 14 feet does just fine
Marc Ornsteins Illusion was picked up by Savage River
http://www.savageriver.com/canoes/recreational/illusion

Others in the class include the Swift Keewaydin 14.
Placid Boatworks RapidFire ( a variant on the Curtis Vagabond mold) or the Hemlock Kestrel

Take a look at all of them.. Commercial models but all amenable to hard heeling to the rail. Some have symmetrical rocker and some asymmetrical. None are straight keeled. A deadwood bow shape isnt your friend and thats why David Yost softens his bows and gives them rocker.

WilloWisp isnice its a bit wide for me who is shorter. http://www.islandfallscanoe.com/inventory/category/1840

 

[sailsman63]

Thanks for the thoughts, both of you.

yellowcanoe, I'm 5'10" with a 5'5" wingspan. I'd be interested in hearing what that does to "ideal" choices. I mentioned weight because I'm also looking at total capacity. If my bodyweight severely under-loads a hull, it won't perform well, even if is an otherwise awesome design.

The canoes that you linked do seem like nice production options, but I'm not interested in a production boat, except perhaps to learn from.

@Jim Dodd: I've seen a few Wee Lassie II examples, including one by the guy that introduced me to Strip Building. That is a lovely hull, and seems to have a very good reputation. She might do very well. Plans $25 from Feather Canoes. Have you ever seen a Wee Lassie with the seat elevated a bit? I've found that I'm rather particular in that regard.

Northwest Canoe actually has the Merlin 160 ("38 special") for free at the moment. I've requested a copy to study, at least. As drawn, I think that would be too much boat for the purpose. I'd have to do some more detailed comparison, but the raw numbers regarding waterline beam, etc. seem to be very close to my tandem. (I'm sure the hull form is significantly different, but they're built on about the same scale.) I wonder how well the hull would take to being down-scaled to 14.5 or 15 feet? I'm not afraid of lofting, and the math should be simple. When you say that you would rocker the stems a bit, do you mean that you would soften the curve of the stem form, or are you thinking something more extensive?

Out of curiosity, have you ever considering publishing you Pearl? Or at least some vital statistics, to see what boats she would compare with? Liked the looks from a recent build thread.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Both Bruce Kunz, and Bob Brown (Minnesota canoe designers, were in the 150# class. So their designs reflected that. Bob designed and sold plans for the Pirate. It was a shallow V- bottomed, with good flare, and no tumblehome.
I built the Pirate and liked it ! Always wanting to improve things, I took the tumblehomed Merlin, that Bruce had designed, and transferred the tumblehome, to the Pirate. Thus the Pearl was created.
I had offered plans for Pearl, to the Minnesota Canoe Asc. Al Gustaveson, then the Building director for the MCA, rejected them, as they needed to be more than just form drawings to be sold.

So I've kept the plans for myself. I have not marketed the plans for that reason.

Getting back to the Wee Lassie II, The Adirondak Museum has offsets for Rushton's Arkansas Traveler. Mac's Wee Lassie II Is the same exact design, except the form spacing. Mac's WLII is shorter. I don't know anymore what the Museum charges, but that would also be an option.
The seat, could be raised a little, but it's best when set up like a kayak.

North West canoe's Passage, would fit your request pretty good at least in my mind.

Lastly, maybe Alan Gage would design something ? That would be Cool !!!

Jim

 

[yellowcanoe]

I mentioned production models to look at dimensions.. Severely underloading is not usually an issue unless you get into longer wider boats. See Archimedes principle: the weight of water displaced= the weight of the canoe and occupant. That transfers into waterline displacement usually given in inches as on the Placid site, which is dependent on volume displaced( which is also a function of weight of water displaced..Ergo a shorter or narrower boat displaces less water for a given weight.. but increase the weight and it sinks farther in the water.

This is not usually a problem for fourteen foot long boats and under. 90 pounders do fine in a 13 foot canoe that displaces to the three inch waterline.. See Karen Knight videos . My friend Tom used to paddle an 11 foot 21 inch wide canoe just cause he could. At 6'3" this was a feat that few other tall people could do. That center of gravity is most important.

There are tons of Adirondack Pack canoes made by about six shops. In New York of course. The most famous is sought by all.. the Wee Lassie with nary a thought that George Washington Sears was a tubercular 90 lbs. Not carrying much gear and visiting a lot of Adirondack hotels in the day. So its on the other end of the weight/volume conundrum. Its a boat unsuitable for supersize paddlers.

While its nice to visit the Adirondack Museum some of the pack canoes ( especially the originals by Hornbeck) are worthy of note. With their constant flare and cheeked stems they are stable seaworthy slow and harder to turn.

Check out Al Bratton at Woodstrip Watercraft.. http://woodstrip.wcha.org/canoes.html
His Widgeon is good for taller paddlers
The Teal works too but not for tall people.. Al did the design and sought out feedback from many including David Yost the noted designer. The prototype was too hard chined ( an abrupt turn of the bilge) and when heeled just went over.. I got wet so many times that day! Al fixed that.. Not sure if Al has patterns for either boat for sale.

In the solo world we size by knee spread and armspan to ensure you can feel stable if you have to kneel and also that you can get a vertical stroke. Weight is a secondary concern..

Here is a video of Marc ( who runs about 130 lbs) in his Illusion a few years ago.. Gives an idea of size matching( note cross strokes) secondary stabilty and maneuvarability as well as going straight . He is about 5'5'"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzTR-EyjanM

If you could make the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association Assembly in New York you would see lots of strip built canoes... pack and what we think of for the most part as more modern designs.

 

[Muskrat]

You could also look at the Northwest Tadpole if your deciding between a kayak and pack canoe. It can be built at 13 ft. Sit on bottom with a kayak paddle or kneel with a canoe paddle.

 

[Cruiser]

I had the same decision to make as you did, I wanted an all round single boat for tandem and solo ... I finally gave up and built one of each ... the solo first though.

I ended up choosing one of the Bear Mountain designs, the Freedom Solo, which I built in the 16'3" version as I am getting a little hefty and I wanted the extra length/room. I like this design so much I am actually planning a another build this spring/summer.

This is a link to the build page, I posted a 3 minute video of it's first water trial, that my wife took ... I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this design:

http://buildersforum.bearmountainboa...=2006&start=45

It has been to Quetico, French River and Algonquin Parks and it has taken wind, waves and heavy rain without blinking ... and with the double paddle it is just easy to paddle and generally I have to slow down to stay with my camping group.


Brian

 

[sailsman63]

Thanks again for weighing in...

I was concerned about under-loading, because I'm experiencing it with my current hull. I've managed to get some volume specs up for comparison, and find that my tandem is rather bulkier than some of the other hulls mentioned here. (25% more volume at 3" WL compared to Merlin, and the Freedom Solo is even slimmer, it seems)

@Cruiser: That's a nice looking build. Very nice recovery from the in-build accident. For some reason, I can't get the video to play or download. I'd probably still find the 15' version a bit on the big side for a day-tripper - remember, I'm rather less than 150# (Closer to 135!)

@Muskrat: Thanks for the suggestion. Would you expect this hull to track reasonably well? I'm reading "nimble and quick to accelerate" in the write-up as "Turns on a dime when you ask. Turns on a dime with a straight stroke. Basically turns on a dime unless you watch you feathering very carefully, and even then it'll turn on a dime occasionally."

@yellowcanoe: Some very impressive videos there. That would take some practice, and I don't doubt that a Canoe in that size range would work out well. I don't think that the Illusion is available as plans. (At least, I've not found them anywhere.) I did notice that Mr. Ornstein seemed to have his weight further forward than I would have expected, I wonder if this was to break the stern a little free for responsiveness?

Teal and Widgeon might very well perform, but something about them is...not talking to me.

Jim Dodd: I do remember that story about the origin of Pearl. Thanks for reminding me. I've been playing around with the Merlin lines that I got from Northwest, and I think that I might really like it... as a tripper. Even scaling all dimensions to 90% (Resulting in a 14.25 hull with a 24" WL beam) might be a little oversize for daytripping. If I were to build it as a camper (Not on any forseeable roadmap) I'd possibly soften the forefoot a bit - but I'd like to paddle the original before deciding on that.

I'm getting more attracted to the WL2 the more I look at it.

 

[yellowcanoe]

@yellowcanoe: Some very impressive videos there. That would take some practice, and I don't doubt that a Canoe in that size range would work out well. I don't think that the Illusion is available as plans. (At least, I've not found them anywhere.) I did notice that Mr. Ornstein seemed to have his weight further forward than I would have expected, I wonder if this was to break the stern a little free for responsiveness?

Illusion isn't available as plan. From your background I sense you are used to something bow light and stern heavy.. When you get into solo canoes you get into the ability for a day tripper to trim out dead level.. The stern is free to kick out but there is paddling technique that keeps the boat tracking and then allows the stern to skid. When you are in a solo canoe you do have the freedom to pitch the bow down if you are centered to catch an eddy or make a turn faster on a twisty river. Solo seats are generally with front edge 6-8 in aft of the center of bouyancy. For a true symmetrical hull this is 6-8 inches aft of midline.
This keeps the bow down, negates a LOT of windage problems.
The stuff Marc does has some use in tripping but putting knee on gunwale just pitched bow down.. It can pitch any packs out!

What you may want to do is design your own boat.. or go to a canoe event that has lots of solos and play with them

 

[Cruiser]

Swift has a couple Pack canoes .. I believe a 12.5 and a 13.5, those might really suit what you want. I have taken those on a trip and they are a lot of fun and perform well.

I have searched and can't find anything like them available in plans or lofting tables .... I would build one of those in a heartbeat for just going out and exploring.

I am still thinking of a way to loft the plans from the canoe ... just rent one and do up lofting tables, but that magic ahhh-ha moment hasn't happened yet.

Brian

 

[yellowcanoe]

Once upon a time someone tried to loft a Flash FIre.. The Flash is sporty yet has great secondary stability.. The lofted result was a disaster. Relegated to those who showed up at events without a canoe it was guaranteed to turn beginners off of solo canoeing for a long time!

I know lofting is an art beyond me.. I think that that lofter just scribed external dimensions onto paper.

 

[Cruiser]

I did the forms for my last build from the design tables ( I was bored over a long winter) and they matched up with the plans perfectly.

I think the real challenge with lofting from a canoe isn't getting the cross section at each point correct, I think it is the vertical positioning of that shape ... get that wrong and you get what you are talking about.

I have some ideas, but I haven't had that eureka moment yet ... but it is still in the back of my mind percolating.

Brian

 

[Jim Dodd]

At this point in time, I'd stick with what is out there, tried and proven.
I have designed, altered, lofted, and really enjoyed the experience.
And that might be something you want to do. Just be prepared, and do your home work !

Jim

 

[Guest]

Sailsman, any thoughts about incorporating a small sail rig into the design? Especially if some of your daytripping is up and around and back lake stuff.

 

[Merlin]

No Title

Here is my Northwest Merlin, shortened to 14.5 feet. I like it. May be something to consider.

 

[wingnut]

Nice looking boat Merlin. Did you just shorten the spacing on the forms to get down to 14.5 ? What did you end up with for weight?

 

[Merlin]

Nice looking boat Merlin. Did you just shorten the spacing on the forms to get down to 14.5 ? What did you end up with for weight?[/QUOT

Yes, I just shortened the form spacing. I haven't weighed it, I need to do that sometime.

 

[sailsman63]

From your background I sense you are used to something bow light and stern heavy.. When you get into solo canoes you get into the ability for a day tripper to trim out dead level.. The stern is free to kick out but there is paddling technique that keeps the boat tracking and then allows the stern to skid.

To an extent, it's impossible for me to trim my tandem any other way without adding a lot more weight than I'm willing to carry as ballast.... which is why I'm looking at real solos. I was more surprised when he came completely forward of midships, and spiked the bow down to about 5" freeboard.

I may well have some questions about technique if/when I have a boat to apply them in.

What you may want to do is design your own boat.. or go to a canoe event that has lots of solos and play with them

I've designed all three of the canoes that I have built so far (2nd was just a slimmed version of first, but still...) Jim Dodd is right, its a rewarding experience. There is, however, a bit of a learning curve, and I need to have a baseline to compare to. There is a paddlesport shop in range for me that allows test paddles, (They're backed up to an extensive urban lake system) so I should be able to try out a few different basic types of hull shape...

@Mike McCrea: Probably not, for two reasons:

1 - Personal preference. I'd love to sail, but if I do, I want to sail, not just pop up a little kite. I'd want a fully kitted out fore-aft rig, mast, rudder, etc. The type of canoe that would handle such a rig reasonably is a far cry from the sort of flexible solo that I have in mind. In truth, the way I would like to sail probably should not be done in a canoe at all - If I'm going to optimize for sailing, I should go for a proper sailboat/sailboard, which cannot go some of the places that I want to take a solo.

2. Part of the go-big-or-go-home attitude to sailing is that in my state, any craft over 12' must be registered as a sailboat before you can show any canvas. It is therefore hardly worth it to rig one of the small kite type sails, which would only see occasional use. Sailboat registration is rather more expensive than the courtesy registration that I have the option of applying to a canoe. (Mostly to keep from getting hassled in places like Iowa that require canoes to be registered.)

And before anyone asks, yes the local DNR will enforce this reg. They might even cite a person for making creative use of an oversize golf umbrella, if they're in the right mood.

@Cruiser: lofting off the outside of an existing hull could take some patience. You need a way to measure distances from a known baseline, but I can think of a couple ways of doing it. Block the canoe level upsdie down. Brace something straight, like an aluminum extension ladder above the canoe on something like saw-horses. Bridge with a level. Measure down to the canoe using a plumb bob, measure out from the center using a tape. Would take some time to align the arrangement with the canoe centerline. Once you have a fairly good set of measurements, you will still need to fair the curves, either on paper, in a computer program, or during the first build.

@Merlin: Good to hear that the merlin does well a little shorter. How well would you say she tracks? About how much would you consider a typical day load for your use?

 

[Guest]

in my state, any craft over 12' must be registered as a sailboat before you can show any canvas. It is therefore hardly worth it to rig one of the small kite type sails, which would only see occasional use. Sailboat registration is rather more expensive than the courtesy registration that I have the option of applying to a canoe. (Mostly to keep from getting hassled in places like Iowa that require canoes to be registered.)

And before anyone asks, yes the local DNR will enforce this reg. They might even cite a person for making creative use of an oversize golf umbrella, if they're in the right mood.

Well dang. I carry my little downwind sail when I travel and have used it all over the country. But it’s not worth some scofflaw encounter with officialdom.

In a continuing effort to avoid conflict with authorities, what State has those sail requirements?

Or States?