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Second canoe

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Mar 14, 2018
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Hi!

It's time to start building an another canoe. I was thinking of solo canoe with
-ability to paddle in shallow waters,
-light
-good stability

Is 13 feet too short to paddle comfort? should I build 14 feet?
Previous canoe was north west cruiser and I modified it little bit. It's 900mm wide and height at middle is 360mm. it is 17 feet long. I think it weights something like closer to 100 pound. I am just able to lift it my shoulders and it's pain to carry. even 100 meters make me cry.

Here is two plans I was thinking. feel free to tell pros and cons about them.
 

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A flat bottom will feel pretty stable, but will pitch side to side when broaching waves. It will also be considerably slower than a more rounded or veed hull.

A more rounded hull will be faster, but feel more "lively" (less stable), but will slip broaching waves much better.
I've spent many days in 327 pro boats that have fully rounded bottoms. Fast yes, but my lats gets tired from the constant "dithering".

That 17 foot cruiser should weigh less than 50 lbs, if built casually, closer to 40 lbs if built with a lightweight mindset. (thinner strips, low density wood, NO hardwood, no stems, minimal gunnels and trim, lighter glass, no double layers)

13 feet is kind of short, IMHO, but it depends on your intended usage and typical displacement.
Between 14 and 15 feet is nearly ideal for an all around solo. Keep in mind that I am still can make the welterweight limit, and my gear rarely exceeds 30 lbs.

What is your intended use? How much do you and your gear weigh? Will this be a big water boat, where seaworthiness and final stability are paramount? Will this be a swift water boat, where maneuverability is more important than speed? Will this be a pond hopper with multi-mile carries? Will this be a flat water rocket, with speed more important than load capacity?
Answer these questions, and many of here can suggest the ideal hull design for you.
 
I just reviewed your previous build thread and your photostream pics...

Did you end up using the polyester resin on the last build? Will you use epoxy resin on this build?

And separately, did you build that CNC router yourself? Some Thomson bars, linear ball bushings and a few stepper motors? I would like to hear details if you did build it yourself.
 
13 feet is kind of short, IMHO, but it depends on your intended usage and typical displacement.
Between 14 and 15 feet is nearly ideal for an all around solo. Keep in mind that I am still can make the welterweight limit, and my gear rarely exceeds 30 lbs

Well, 14 should be enough for me.


What is your intended use? How much do you and your gear weigh? Will this be a big water boat, where seaworthiness and final stability are paramount? Will this be a swift water boat, where maneuverability is more important than speed? Will this be a pond hopper with multi-mile carries? Will this be a flat water rocket, with speed more important than load capacity?
Answer these questions, and many of here can suggest the ideal hull design for you.
​​​​​
I was thinking something for calm rivers and small ponds, not sure yet if I prefer more speed than stability, but load weight should be high and I assume that flat bottom is better for that.
Most important is the weight and ease to carry canoe between ponds and rivers. Shallow waters are my prior paddling targets.

Should I set rocker to zero because I really like if canoe goes straight and is not oversteering?

Here is tumblehome design.

Edit: Is 300mm height enough for cross section of canoe?
 

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I just reviewed your previous build thread and your photostream pics...

Did you end up using the polyester resin on the last build? Will you use epoxy resin on this build?

And separately, did you build that CNC router yourself? Some Thomson bars, linear ball bushings and a few stepper motors? I would like to hear details if you did build it yourself.

Yes I used polyester resin, because I build the canoe out of pine and I read that polyester have problems to stick with cedar, but not with pine.

Yes, it's homemade couple dozen hours with solidworks and then more hours at shop. I used chinese parts:

sbr 20 and mgn 12 rails

8mm leadscrew with nylon nut and 4mm lead for x and y. z was 2mm lead

nema 23 openloop stepper motors.

500w chinese spindle with 1-7mm holder

Mach 3 control board

TB6600 stepper motor driver

24V 15A powers source for steppers.

And nearly two sheets of baltic birch plywood 15mm and 18mm

Cutting area of 600x400mm (too small for routing canoe molds) :(

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-...-40mm-finnish-birch-plywood-cnc-router-5.html

here is build thread of machine. I'm REALLY lazy to take photos though..

I will upload some more photos to flickr at some point
 
Without dimension or model those plans make it a bit hard to give much advice .... for a solo you really want a shallow arch design, I would say 14' is a minimum ... 15' would be the sweet spot between weight/capacity/cruising speed, the 14' will work, but there is a noticeable difference in the same model when built as a 14' and 15'.

My last build was a Freedom Solo (Bear Mountain) built as the 16'3" version and my final weight was 39.4 pounds ... I use this boat for tripping and like it enough that I have built 2 of them.

Where are you getting these plans and what are the model names?

Brian
 
13 ' is fine for a sit on the bottom, Wee Lassie type canoe. Likely the lightest you will find good plans for.

Depending how big you are ? I like a tumblehomed 15+' hull, for a 230# guy .

North West Canoe has a few nice designs, that should fill your bill. And you know they are free..

Now for Hull Shape ! One of the Hottest canoe designs out there over the years, has been the Bell Magic. If you look at that hull, it is flat bottomed !

Anything you decide to build ! Please do yourself a favor, and use Epoxy, instead of Polyester resin ! I have a hull in the shop that's less than 10yrs old, built with Polyester resin ! It needs to be reglassed.
The fiberglass peeled off like a banana skin ! Polyester resin does bond good to wood !
I'd show you pics if Photobucket was working !

Jim
 
Without dimension or model those plans make it a bit hard to give much advice .... for a solo you really want a shallow arch design, I would say 14' is a minimum ... 15' would be the sweet spot between weight/capacity/cruising speed, the 14' will work, but there is a noticeable difference in the same model when built as a 14' and 15'.

My last build was a Freedom Solo (Bear Mountain) built as the 16'3" version and my final weight was 39.4 pounds ... I use this boat for tripping and like it enough that I have built 2 of them.

Where are you getting these plans and what are the model names?

Brian

This is not plan for certain canoe model, It's drawn by me and I have just looked models on web to get inspiration. I plan to draw these ready and pull out DXF files and route molds with our workplace's CNC
 
13 ' is fine for a sit on the bottom, Wee Lassie type canoe. Likely the lightest you will find good plans for.

Depending how big you are ? I like a tumblehomed 15+' hull, for a 230# guy .

North West Canoe has a few nice designs, that should fill your bill. And you know they are free..

Now for Hull Shape ! One of the Hottest canoe designs out there over the years, has been the Bell Magic. If you look at that hull, it is flat bottomed !

Anything you decide to build ! Please do yourself a favor, and use Epoxy, instead of Polyester resin ! I have a hull in the shop that's less than 10yrs old, built with Polyester resin ! It needs to be reglassed.
The fiberglass peeled off like a banana skin ! Polyester resin does bond good to wood !
I'd show you pics if Photobucket was working !

Jim

Was that canoe made of cedar or pine? I read from kayak forum that polyester resin tends to stick better to pine than cedar.
Does canoe need less epoxy to wet than polyester? It felt that my last canoe sucked polyester like 12-18 pounds total which sounds plenty for me..

I weight 158 pounds and with gears and stuff I'll be good with 250# capacity.
Yes, north west canoe has nice designs, but not what I'm looking for. That's why I would go with these modified self drawn plans.
Not yet clear if I go with tumblehome or shallow arc.

Canoeing.com says like this

"Shallow Arch
Designed to give paddlers the stability of a flat hull and the flexibility of a round hull"

"Tumblehome
If ease and stroke perfection are required, such as in racing, a canoe may have tumblehome, with the gunwale width smaller than the waterline width. These canoes don’t deflect water but are easier to paddle"

Here is overall profile for canoe
 

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I understand the joys of designing your own canoe !

I've designed, and built a few, and some sent me back to the drawing board.

You might want to check into Delftship to help you computer design a canoe !

Tumblehome. I like it ! I don't particularly care for the "Shouldered" type. just a gradual Tumblehome that brings the shearline in an inch or two on a side.

A 26 -27" shearline width is a comfortable width in my experience.

I'm also liking a flatter hull shape than is promoted these days. Again take a hard look at a Bell Magic. Better yet test paddle one. Look how flat the hull is !
A little rocker is good.
As well as a good amount of Flare in the bow and stern,to shed on coming waves.

Most of all ! Have fun !

IMG_0986_zpsij1jyqom.jpg

IMG_0986_zpsij1jyqom.jpg

IMG_0986_zpsij1jyqom.jpg
 
You may want to check the terms .... I believe "shallow arch" refers to the shape of the canoe bottom and as such is an important design consideration for stability, while tumblehome refers to shape of the sides as they approach the gunnels and is used to reduce the width of the canoe at the gunnels to make paddling easier and in some cases add stiffness to the structure. The hull would normally flare wider as it approaches the gunnels, the tumblehome introduces a reverse to this and makes the boat width narrower as it approaches the gunnels. If this wasn't done then the paddler would have to "reach" out to clear the gunnels when paddling .... having it allows all the benefits of a wider hull, while easing the paddling position required.

So when you say "Not yet clear if I go with tumblehome or shallow arc." it is a choice you don't have to make, they are not the same thing and describe different features.

The overall canoe shape you posted looks to describe a symmetrical hull, while it will work fine, an asymmetrical hull will give you better "on water" performance.

I am taking an interest in this as I am doing the same exercise of designing my next boat (winter project) and am looking at creating a trip worthy cedar strip at 15' and somewhere close to 30 pounds. I just got back from a week long spring trip and after trying several 14' and 15' models, i have pretty much decided that the 14s aren't quite enough boat for my purposes, but the 15s seem to be good and that is why I suggested that as starting length for a boat used for tripping. Having said that, my buddy is happy in his 14 and he weighs about the same as you.

At 250 pounds total total load, almost anything with 25"-27" gunnel width and 14' or better length will have capacity to spare ... that leaves the performance parameters to decide ... currently, most of the top designs use shallow arch hulls(for stability) , asymmetric hull (for better "on water" performance) and tumblehome to ease the reach required for paddling.

Brian
 
I understand the joys of designing your own canoe !

I've designed, and built a few, and some sent me back to the drawing board.

You might want to check into Delftship to help you computer design a canoe !

Tumblehome. I like it ! I don't particularly care for the "Shouldered" type. just a gradual Tumblehome that brings the shearline in an inch or two on a side.

A 26 -27" shearline width is a comfortable width in my experience.

I'm also liking a flatter hull shape than is promoted these days. Again take a hard look at a Bell Magic. Better yet test paddle one. Look how flat the hull is !
A little rocker is good.
As well as a good amount of Flare in the bow and stern,to shed on coming waves.

Most of all ! Have fun !

Yes, the bell magic looks good. I have drawn another version, it have tumblehome and shallow arc bottom. Length is going to be 15'

What does flare mean in this context? Do you mean that bow and stern have low arc? English is not my native language, so just to clarify the meaning


You may want to check the terms .... I believe "shallow arch" refers to the shape of the canoe bottom and as such is an important design consideration for stability, while tumblehome refers to shape of the sides as they approach the gunnels and is used to reduce the width of the canoe at the gunnels to make paddling easier and in some cases add stiffness to the structure. The hull would normally flare wider as it approaches the gunnels, the tumblehome introduces a reverse to this and makes the boat width narrower as it approaches the gunnels. If this wasn't done then the paddler would have to "reach" out to clear the gunnels when paddling .... having it allows all the benefits of a wider hull, while easing the paddling position required.

So when you say "Not yet clear if I go with tumblehome or shallow arc." it is a choice you don't have to make, they are not the same thing and describe different features.

The overall canoe shape you posted looks to describe a symmetrical hull, while it will work fine, an asymmetrical hull will give you better "on water" performance.

I am taking an interest in this as I am doing the same exercise of designing my next boat (winter project) and am looking at creating a trip worthy cedar strip at 15' and somewhere close to 30 pounds. I just got back from a week long spring trip and after trying several 14' and 15' models, i have pretty much decided that the 14s aren't quite enough boat for my purposes, but the 15s seem to be good and that is why I suggested that as starting length for a boat used for tripping. Having said that, my buddy is happy in his 14 and he weighs about the same as you.

At 250 pounds total total load, almost anything with 25"-27" gunnel width and 14' or better length will have capacity to spare ... that leaves the performance parameters to decide ... currently, most of the top designs use shallow arch hulls(for stability) , asymmetric hull (for better "on water" performance) and tumblehome to ease the reach required for paddling.

Brian


Yes, thanks for correction. I'm not familiar with terms yet.

I need to read more about asymmetrical hull.. How big impact it have to performance?

This version n.4 have 26 inch sheerline and 29 inch widest point, wonder if it have too much difference between sheerline and widest point..
 

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To me .
Flare adds to the sea worthiness of a hull. Instead of cutting through a wave it lifts a hull over.

A ball is flared half way up. the top half is tumblehomed. Does that make sense !

I like your last design better than the earlier ones !

Jim
 
I would suggest that a max width at gunnel of of 26" and a max width of 29" isn't an issue ... it is in line with the model(s) I am considering
 
That latest design is looking more like modern solo hulls...
If you add some differential rocker, maybe 1 inch aft and 2-2-1/2 inch in the bow, you'll be pleased with both tracking and maneuverability.

Also, if you make the 1st and last couple forms wider at the shear, that will introduce some "flare". While it may make the shear line look awkward, that flare would greatly improve the hulls ability to shed waves. In rough water (which you will inevitably encounter) the flare will keep you drier and safer.
Take a look at some of Alan Gage's recent designs, they performed extremely well for him.

Lastly, don't position your seat until AFTER you test paddle the hull. Even an inch or two variation in seat location(up-down, fore-aft) can greatly affect the way the hull feels.
 
To me .
Flare adds to the sea worthiness of a hull. Instead of cutting through a wave it lifts a hull over.

A ball is flared half way up. the top half is tumblehomed. Does that make sense !

I like your last design better than the earlier ones !

Jim

do you mean like this?
 

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That latest design is looking more like modern solo hulls...
If you add some differential rocker, maybe 1 inch aft and 2-2-1/2 inch in the bow, you'll be pleased with both tracking and maneuverability.

Also, if you make the 1st and last couple forms wider at the shear, that will introduce some "flare". While it may make the shear line look awkward, that flare would greatly improve the hulls ability to shed waves. In rough water (which you will inevitably encounter) the flare will keep you drier and safer.
Take a look at some of Alan Gage's recent designs, they performed extremely well for him.

Lastly, don't position your seat until AFTER you test paddle the hull. Even an inch or two variation in seat location(up-down, fore-aft) can greatly affect the way the hull feels.


Just to make sure, is aft from widest point to rear of the boat and bow from widest point to front of boat? is half inch aft and 1,5 inch to bow for rocker enough? I prefer more tracking.
Does rocker have influence on speed of canoe?

here is symmetrical and asymmetrical hulls.

Edit: red line is gunwale width and black is from widest point
 

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The widest point lines near the bow and stern have a pronounced curve, which as I understand it, is not going to be desirable for a boat design.

It will create turbulence as it pushes through the water, it should follow the same shape as the gunnel lines ..... longer, relatively straight portions as you approach the bow and stern allow the water to move away from the hull (bow), then move back (stern) cleanly, creating minimum drag.


Brian
 
To make a more relevant assessment, you need to show us the design displacement waterline.
That abrupt black line would cause poor performance if that's the waterline...
 
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