Just to add a little fun to Jim's post, here's a poll to see the ratio of gunwale screwers to gunwale gluer, lol.
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Poll: Gunwale gluer or screwer?
- Thread starter memaquay
- Start date
I'm a riveter. Wood is lovely, but aluminum rails never have a headache.
All of the threads about building a composite hull of from a stripper guarantees that I'm screwing at least the outwales so I can take them off when eventually making a carbon or innegra raven
Anxiously Waiting for the Thread !
I love my Strippers like a Pimp.
But a Composite ? I'll Portage to places a WC canoe only dreams about !
No choice for screws and glue? I voted screws, but could go either way.
Hey Jim, if you really expect us to believe that bs, you need to get the maps from Memaquay and paddle/portage the 100 mile Marshall Lake circuit in northern Ontario. I did it at 65 yo, with a wood canvas canoe, solo.
Oh wait, Marshall Lake route is on crown land, uncleared portages and all, your used to paddling in a park where you have to stop early each day to insure your able to get a campsite, you know, those pesky crowds.
Yes Robin ! You are Superman though.
I'm just a Mortal man ! I'm 70 now, Cutting the weight of a canoe in half, is a big aid. Doesn't matter how old you are.
That's no BS !
Jim
Not a Superman here Jim, you make a statement like that and I respond with a sound argument.
Im just finishing up a 14’ canoe wood and canvas canoe built off a form matching the original 14’ Chestnut Fox. I didn’t build the hull, it was built lightweight using thick cedar inwales, lighter plank and ribs too. I used a #12 canvas and spruce gunnels, it’s 12 & 1/4” deep. Finished weight with a seat and stem bands is 43.5 lbs.
This canoe is a fine solo tripper, Just as capable of finishing a demanding trip as any other canoes of similar length/weight.
The great thing about this canoe is it’s ability to be used hard and in the event of any significant damage, it can be completely repaired too original condition with no evidence of said repairs.
Can you repair a significantly damaged Kevlar or stripper without some evidence of a repair? (Pictures or it never happened)
Im just finishing up a 14’ canoe wood and canvas canoe built off a form matching the original 14’ Chestnut Fox. I didn’t build the hull, it was built lightweight using thick cedar inwales, lighter plank and ribs too. I used a #12 canvas and spruce gunnels, it’s 12 & 1/4” deep. Finished weight with a seat and stem bands is 43.5 lbs.
This canoe is a fine solo tripper, Just as capable of finishing a demanding trip as any other canoes of similar length/weight.
The great thing about this canoe is it’s ability to be used hard and in the event of any significant damage, it can be completely repaired too original condition with no evidence of said repairs.
Can you repair a significantly damaged Kevlar or stripper without some evidence of a repair? (Pictures or it never happened)
I don't glue,
I don't screw,
I just pay
Others to do.
But I wouldn't pay for glued gunwales, with one partial exception. Why would you glue? Wouldn't that be less secure than screwing? Wouldn't it be more of a hassle to get glued gunwales off for repair or replacement?
The one exception is that John Berry (Millbrook Boats) used to use pine gunwales to keep down boat weight. However, to reduce outwale denting he would glue a ~3/8" strip of ash onto the pine outwale. Since the pine inwale would not reliably support hung seats, his seats were boards epoxied to the hull or saddles/pedestals.
I don't screw,
I just pay
Others to do.
But I wouldn't pay for glued gunwales, with one partial exception. Why would you glue? Wouldn't that be less secure than screwing? Wouldn't it be more of a hassle to get glued gunwales off for repair or replacement?
The one exception is that John Berry (Millbrook Boats) used to use pine gunwales to keep down boat weight. However, to reduce outwale denting he would glue a ~3/8" strip of ash onto the pine outwale. Since the pine inwale would not reliably support hung seats, his seats were boards epoxied to the hull or saddles/pedestals.
Started writing a new blues song today.
The Gluer's Blues
I once knew a man who was a gluer
The hardware he liked to be fewer
As much as he clamped and squirted glue like a champ
He never had as much fun as the screwer.
The Gluer's Blues
I once knew a man who was a gluer
The hardware he liked to be fewer
As much as he clamped and squirted glue like a champ
He never had as much fun as the screwer.
dang, that's a good weight on that Fox Robin, I'm jelly!
Robin, we can banter each other, all day long, whose canoe is better !
My 16+' Black Pearl, at 36#, is the canoe I would seriously trip in, over a 14' 43# WC canoe. That is No BS , just plain common sense !
Is my canoe easier to repair than a Wood canvas ? In my eyes Yes ? Epoxy !
Certainly. I understand the nostalgic love for WC canoes. I just don't see any advantage over my strippers or composites.
Nice Tune Mem ! Do you play a Ukulele ?
My 16+' Black Pearl, at 36#, is the canoe I would seriously trip in, over a 14' 43# WC canoe. That is No BS , just plain common sense !
Is my canoe easier to repair than a Wood canvas ? In my eyes Yes ? Epoxy !
Certainly. I understand the nostalgic love for WC canoes. I just don't see any advantage over my strippers or composites.
Nice Tune Mem ! Do you play a Ukulele ?
G
Guest
Guest
Interesting question. Short answer, with only very minor evidence of repair, often just on the inside, yes. With folks more skilled at composite repairs than I, probably no evidence.
I would admittedly be clueless, beyond wouldn’t-know-where-to-,start helpless at repairing or refurbishing a wood canvas canoe, and not much better at repairing a damaged stripper.
And I have seen some truly fugly attempts at making repairs on composite boats; heck, I made some of them myself 30 years ago when I was (self-taught) first learning to do FRP work.
The materials (slowly) got better, from auto-store E-glass & poly resin, to S-glass, kevlar and epoxy resins. And, like anything else, I (slowly) got better; learning the value of surface prep, taping, rolling vs brushing, sanding and wet sanding, peel ply application, how to use which epoxy and hardener, pigment and thickening agent.
No doubt there is a similar learning curve with wood canvas and stripper work.
Luckily (for me) there are no photos of my earliest FRP repair attempts, I shudder to think of the messes I made. Worse shudder; some of those repairs were on friend’s canoes. Worst shudder, some of those “repairs” were made with leftover kevlar felt and urethane skid plate resin. On the outside of the hull.
While I had more experience than theirs (to say, none), that still wasn’t saying much. Mea culpa.
Some illustrations of early day’s, albeit slightly more skilled, repair work. Still E-glass, poly resin and not much clue. Solid, but drippy not pretty.
PA270054 by Mike McCrea, on FlickrMore novice hideousness; what was I thinking?
PA270064 by Mike McCrea, on Flickrdang near invisible now inside
PB040050 by Mike McCrea, on FlickrCompletely invisible outside
PC110015 by Mike McCrea, on FlickrThis entire thread, a dumpster ready cracked and busted to heck 40 year old glass boat, refurbished good as new.
https://www.canoetripping.net/forums...rad-ts-rebuild
Long way of saying Yes, you can repair a significantly damaged Kevlar or glass canoe with, at most, very little evidence of a repair; it is just another learned skill. If it passes the 30 foot test, and is otherwise as good as new to paddle, I’m enough happy with it, and I’d like to think that most of my FRP work now passes the 5 foot test.
I imagine WCHA and similar aficionados could glance at a wood canvas canoe and note most repairs and replacements. I know that is true among guys who do composite repairs. No blemish too small.
Not being a builder I am neither a gluer nor a screwer, and so will steer clear of those troubled waters. My personal preference for tripper proven bank banger boats vs precious wall art canoes might say more for my attitude than my latitude. I am not a burly man but neither am I a sensitive soul without clout. My Zen don't piss me off middle ground mind cloud might matter more than any clique driven cliche but who the F knows. Get off my lawn and leave me alone.
To my mind there are many different classes of lasses on the water these days, from classic to plastic and from wood canvas to cedar strip. All I know is that we all decide to which we attach our painter, also to which we attach our hearts and our dreams. I am still looking for mine. Ever more.
At this 2021 moment my painter is tied to my Kevlar, but as always my heart is open and free awaiting the first wayward tripper to cross my purchase portage path.. I too can dream. And plan. And dream to truly live. If I could live traditionally I'd paddle a birch bark, otherwise I'd slide down canoe history to canvas. What a beautiful country to explore, one of romance and history, fabric and lore. North America had already been traced by birch bark and deerskin for thousands of years, later colonially retraced by w/c and tobacco. Let's face it , we're all late comers to this uninvited colonial invasion party. We're all pretender defenders of the New World in new skin boats. I'm happy in mine, are you happy in yours? But if I could shed my purely practical Kev skin for something else it would most definitely be wood canvas.
ps I usually take some pleasure from repairing what I can't replace. That goes for nearly everything. Screw built strippers sound repairable while gluers do not. I know which I would prefer. I take a small roll of duct tape on trips for emergency repairs. Tent, clothing, canoe, whatever needs a temporary mend. I have yet to use it but it's always there just in case.
pps Two summers ago we paddled past an historic youth camp. Their boys and girls canoe trip exclusively with wooden wannigans and wood canvas canoes taking their history with them. And they trip where most others rarely go. I envy them.
To my mind there are many different classes of lasses on the water these days, from classic to plastic and from wood canvas to cedar strip. All I know is that we all decide to which we attach our painter, also to which we attach our hearts and our dreams. I am still looking for mine. Ever more.
At this 2021 moment my painter is tied to my Kevlar, but as always my heart is open and free awaiting the first wayward tripper to cross my purchase portage path.. I too can dream. And plan. And dream to truly live. If I could live traditionally I'd paddle a birch bark, otherwise I'd slide down canoe history to canvas. What a beautiful country to explore, one of romance and history, fabric and lore. North America had already been traced by birch bark and deerskin for thousands of years, later colonially retraced by w/c and tobacco. Let's face it , we're all late comers to this uninvited colonial invasion party. We're all pretender defenders of the New World in new skin boats. I'm happy in mine, are you happy in yours? But if I could shed my purely practical Kev skin for something else it would most definitely be wood canvas.
ps I usually take some pleasure from repairing what I can't replace. That goes for nearly everything. Screw built strippers sound repairable while gluers do not. I know which I would prefer. I take a small roll of duct tape on trips for emergency repairs. Tent, clothing, canoe, whatever needs a temporary mend. I have yet to use it but it's always there just in case.
pps Two summers ago we paddled past an historic youth camp. Their boys and girls canoe trip exclusively with wooden wannigans and wood canvas canoes taking their history with them. And they trip where most others rarely go. I envy them.
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G
Guest
Guest
Robin, you made a statement and I responded with a sound argument.
No Ray Charles here, I have more of a Stevie Wonder thing for my composite canoes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRj5m63oig
A simple pic of why Screwers are Losers !
Here is a gunnel that died before it's time !
You drill a hole in a gunnel, and it becomes the weak link in a chain. After moisture seeps between the gunnels, and the hull ? It's not long before Rot takes over !!!
Had that gunnel been Glued ? It would still have been go to go !
Here is the Pic !
Here is a gunnel that died before it's time !
You drill a hole in a gunnel, and it becomes the weak link in a chain. After moisture seeps between the gunnels, and the hull ? It's not long before Rot takes over !!!
Had that gunnel been Glued ? It would still have been go to go !
Here is the Pic !
Jim Dodd makes an argument that screw holes can attract water and eventually promote rot. That sounds reasonable, but of course would apply to any metal screw, nail, tack, staple or rivet that pierces any wooden part of a canoe. Think, for example, of the hundreds (thousands?) of clenched nails in a wood/canvas hull.
But I'd still be interested in answers to my two glued gunwale questions. Wouldn't they be more likely to spring apart if the glue fails after a time than screwed gunwales would? Wouldn't glued gunwales be harder to remove from the hull, if necessary, than screwed gunwales?
But I'd still be interested in answers to my two glued gunwale questions. Wouldn't they be more likely to spring apart if the glue fails after a time than screwed gunwales would? Wouldn't glued gunwales be harder to remove from the hull, if necessary, than screwed gunwales?
Glenn . Epoxy makes the gunnels part of the canoe, not just attached. The Epoxy bond, is stronger than wood itself.
By the time glued gunnels are rotted to the point of needing replacement. The gunnels will be soft, and easy to replace.
I'm still waiting for a canoe to enter my shop with glued on gunnels that need replacing ! I have repaired a couple of glued on gunnels of my own canoes, from incidental damage, ( flying off my truck rack at over 55mph ). That required a simple splice, and epoxy.
If you enjoy replacing gunnels ? By all means Screw them on ! Before you do ? Price a set of replacements. Shipped and installed.
By the time glued gunnels are rotted to the point of needing replacement. The gunnels will be soft, and easy to replace.
I'm still waiting for a canoe to enter my shop with glued on gunnels that need replacing ! I have repaired a couple of glued on gunnels of my own canoes, from incidental damage, ( flying off my truck rack at over 55mph ). That required a simple splice, and epoxy.
If you enjoy replacing gunnels ? By all means Screw them on ! Before you do ? Price a set of replacements. Shipped and installed.
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