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D-ring attachment

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Hi All - I'm getting to outfitting my strip canoe with various essentials, one of which is attachment points for flotation bags in the bow and stern. I'm just wondering if anyone has done this in a strip canoe and what are their experiences. My thought is to just epoxy some webbing to the floor and the stem on each end with a d-ring in the center. I don't have a d-ring on hand, but the screw is in its place in these photos. I have some peel ply, which might be nice to use to keep things smooth, but I've never used it before, so I would need some help understanding how it behaves. The other option is to use the webbing as described but add a circle of fiberglass cloth around it as in the second photo. I think this might be overkill though, so I'm not so inclined to go this route. Plus, in the future it might be more difficult to remove or replace with it sandwiched between epoxy/glass and the hull. Any and all suggestions or experiences, including how to operate the peel ply, are welcome.

Thanks, Mark


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Never done it but I'd vote for the second one with the fiberglass. I was thinking about this same setup last year so as a test I epoxied some webbing to a board. After it had fully cured I was able to rip it off. It wasn't easy but I could do it by hand using pliers to grip the webbing. The fact I was able to pull it off by hand made me uncomfortable so I laced the hull instead.

I've heard other people do it with success though so maybe I'd done something wrong but I thought I'd done right. Thought I used plenty of epoxy and I weighted it down with sand bags until cured.

Alan
 
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photo4701.jpg photo4701.jpg I have 'glassed many webbing loop anchors into composite canoes. The same procedure would work fine for a stripper.

First, to secure flotation there is really no need to add a D ring to the webbing loop. The D ring just adds weight and might eventually tarnish or rust. A D ring can be useful to reduce friction is you want to run a strap through it that needs to be able to slide.

I would suggest fraying the ends of your webbing loop. Put the webbing on a scrap wood block and use a razor blade or utility knife to make closely spaced longitudinal slits in an inch or so length at each end of the webbing loop. Fan the frayed end out into a semi-circle when you epoxy it in place.

I have always covered my webbing loop anchors with a layer of fiberglass. If they are epoxied in well, the loops would probably hold OK without the 'glass but I suspect you can get a smoother result if you cover the loop ends with 'glass.

Using peel ply or mold release fabric is pretty easy. Some cloth sold as peel ply is treated with a release agent and this can be left in place and removed even after the epoxy is cured, or nearly so. Untreated thin nylon cloth can also be used as peel ply but this will need to be pulled off while the epoxy is still green or it can be difficult to get off. If the cloth is untreated, timing is the key to removal. You need to wait long enough for the epoxy to be cured enough so that the underlying 'glass fibers are not lifted and displaced by the removal of the ply. Obviously, treated cloth is easier to use.

To use peel ply wet out your fiberglass (or other cloth) as usual and then cover it with a piece of peel ply cut a bit larger. Avoid wrinkles or pleats in the peel ply. Use a plastic squeege to work all air bubbles out from under the peel ply. Sometimes you have to add a little more epoxy over the peel ply to get all the air bubbles out as the peel ply will absorb some resin. The peel ply allows one to get a much smoother edge one the cloth patch without sanding. Peel ply does leave a matte texture to the cloth which does not look bad, but it you want a completely smooth surface you will need to add another coat of epoxy or resin to smooth the texture after the peel ply is pulled.

This photo should give you some idea of what webbing loop anchors covered with fiberglass look like. The red anchors are nylon webbing loops with the ends frayed and splayed:
 

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I would just use wider 2" webbing, plenty of area for the epoxy to hold. One thing to think about is what the webbing is made of. The webbing in your photo looks like polypropylene that is difficult to bond. I would find some polyester webbing if you can. If you want to add a d ring why not use a plastic one. They are much stronger than they look.
 
Not where I can look at it right now, but I think Kaz used either glass or kevlar tape for the whole operation on my Coho. It looks fine and has never budged. I figured on doing the same when I build my stripper. I'll get a photo of it when I get home.
 
If you want to add a d ring why not use a plastic one. They are much stronger than they look.

I think Kaz used either glass or kevlar tape for the whole operation on my Coho.

I like having a D-ring for some applications, largely where I want the ease of simply clipping something off. I use glass tape across the webbing, epoxied in place and covered with peel ply. With the peel ply the tape disappears, even the selvage edge.

I tie the D-ring off upright so it can’t flop over on the resin while curing.



Not my favorite clip style, but it was what I had on hand in the shop, and clipping a float bag under the decks of a hull is lots easier than trying to tie a blind knot or hitch.



Another old school trick for installing DIY D-rings; if you are concerned about accidentally gluing the ring to the hull you can add a little piece of slit plastic soda straw to the flat base of the D before installation.
 
Thanks everybody, I went ahead and ordered some 1" polyester webbing. It seems that polyester also has a bit better UV resistance. I have a load of webbing of all different sizes, but I can't tell what's what. Either the online help for identifying the difference between nylon and polyester isn't clear, or all my webbing is nylon. Those are some pretty good arguments for putting them down with glass, so that's what I'll do. I'm still undecided about whether to include a d-ring. For the tie down at the stem, just below the gunwales, I'm going to use a footman loop instead of trying to epoxy something up under there. Easier to install and plenty strong.


Using peel ply or mold release fabric is pretty easy. Some cloth sold as peel ply is treated with a release agent and this can be left in place and removed even after the epoxy is cured, or nearly so. Untreated thin nylon cloth can also be used as peel ply but this will need to be pulled off while the epoxy is still green or it can be difficult to get off. If the cloth is untreated, timing is the key to removal. You need to wait long enough for the epoxy to be cured enough so that the underlying 'glass fibers are not lifted and displaced by the removal of the ply. Obviously, treated cloth is easier to use.

To use peel ply wet out your fiberglass (or other cloth) as usual and then cover it with a piece of peel ply cut a bit larger. Avoid wrinkles or pleats in the peel ply. Use a plastic squeege to work all air bubbles out from under the peel ply. Sometimes you have to add a little more epoxy over the peel ply to get all the air bubbles out as the peel ply will absorb some resin. The peel ply allows one to get a much smoother edge one the cloth patch without sanding. Peel ply does leave a matte texture to the cloth which does not look bad, but it you want a completely smooth surface you will need to add another coat of epoxy or resin to smooth the texture after the peel ply is pulled.

Thanks for the detail pblanc. My peel ply fabric is green, so I think it's the treated stuff.

Mark
 
Polyester will work fine. Nylon webbing works fine. I would avoid polypropylene webbing because of poor resin adhesion.

Polyester does have better UV resistance but it is a moot point unless you plan to store your canoe gunwales up in direct sunlight for prolonged periods of time. Nylon fibers are a bit stronger than polyester, but polyester is plenty strong.

As Mike said, a D ring of either steel or nylon is helpful if you plan to secure items to the anchor using carabiners. If you are just planning to run the cord of a flotation bag through the loop, or even the end of a keeper strap, the D ring really doesn't add anything.

Remember to mask around the area you plan to mount the anchors with masking tape. You can then squeege excess resin out from underneath your peel ply without worrying about making a mess of the hull. If you don't want to get resin on the free part of your loop (which would stiffen it) wrap that part with waxed paper and tape it in place before bonding in your loop and covering it with 'glass.
 
My peel ply fabric is green, so I think it's the treated stuff.

I don’t know green colored peel ply, the release treated stuff I use looks similar to a very fine weave lightweight fiberglass.

I you are not certain that it is release treated I would use it as though it was green pull peel ply and not leave it in place too long.
 
I don’t know green colored peel ply, the release treated stuff I use looks similar to a very fine weave lightweight fiberglass.

I you are not certain that it is release treated I would use it as though it was green pull peel ply and not leave it in place too long.

Express composites sells a super release treated peel ply in addition to their regular treated peel ply. The super duper stuff is a bluish green color (I'd call it more blue than green) while the regular release treated is white.

Where do you guys get the non-release treated stuff? I've never seen it sold at my regular suppliers and wasn't even aware of it before you mentioned it earlier. Seems odd there would even be a market for it.

Alan
 
I've never done one, but I would at least double layer the fiberglass cloth. Take two scrap pieces and over lap, wet out with resin, and let cure at least a few days, on a piece of plastic. The single layer is soo flimsy, compared to the double layered part.

As for the Peel Ply, Alan uses, I use the same, and yes it's kind of Aqua colored. That's what my wife says. I'd almost call it green.

pblanc has a good trick, wrapping the ring in tape !
 
Curse my memory again! I wen't out to the shop and looked - and it looks like Kaz used polyester webbing and glassed or kevlared it in like Mike's photo - except with no D-ring. Judging by the look of how much of the webbing color shows through (green!) I'd say he must have at least a double layer of fabric over the ends.
 
Where do you guys get the non-release treated stuff? I've never seen it sold at my regular suppliers and wasn't even aware of it before you mentioned it earlier. Seems odd there would even be a market for it.

Sweet Composites sells (or sold?) only the green pull nylon peel ply. Having used both green pull and release treated I much prefer the latter. As much as I would prefer to order from Sweets (nearly local to me) I usually order a bunch of fabrics, tapes and peel ply at the same time and so end up ordering from Express Composites.

There isn’t much cost difference; Express Composites release treated peel ply may actually be less expensive than Sweets green pull (don’t remember).

Pulling the peel ply with the epoxy still green is beneficial if topcoating with additional epoxy for better chemical adhesion, but if that is the situation I don’t need to wait for the epoxy to have fully set to pull the release treated stuff either.

On a large patch or skid plate pulling the green stuff can be a two-handed struggle, or impossible if you wait too long.
 
I got the blueish/green peel ply from Raka. I did do a test with some nylon webbing by soaking the webbing with epoxy, then mixing in some filler and attaching the webbing to some plywood. After a few days I can't pull it off. I think this would be sufficient, but there's no way to make it look very good, so I think I'll use fiberglass cloth for cosmetic purposes at the very least.

While we're on the subject, does anybody have a secret supplier for flotation. I was looking for the Gaia flotation bags, but the company seems to be out of business. That leaves only Harmony, NRS and Mohawk canoes (assuming they still sell them).
 
Yes, Gaia is done.

You mentioned the three most common vendors for open boat flotation bags. In addition, Fall Line Canoes makes some very tough, nice, and expensive bags. Many whitewater open boaters have started using the two layer Fall Line bags because the outer nylon/poly shell provides a lot of protection against punctures. Plus Shawn Alexander makes the shells in some pretty cool colors in custom patterns:

http://www.falllinecanoes.com/air-bags.html

For what it is worth, I use the lightweight urethane nylon bags as sold by Harmony Gear. These are basically the same as the lightweight bags as were made by Voyager years ago. They come in any color you want, as long as it is yellow.
 
+1 on Falllinecanoe, Shawn is a great guy to deal with, yeas his bags are more money, but ho well worth it!! The best bag in the industry!!
 
Those Falline bags look really nice, but are a little outside my price range. Having bought flotation bags 20 years ago I have a little sticker shock at the NRS and Harmony offerings.
 
Those Fall Line bags look real nice. I've been using these and I'm quite happy with them. The dump valves are a little stiff when cold and can leak slowly because of that - but I cured it by using a thin latex balloon as gasket material. Pretty robust construction.
 
But they don't ship to Canada... And I assume they are made in China.... Buy "local" help an American business:)
 
I can't say where they're made - but Coast Water Sports UK doesn't ship to CA? How strange...
 
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