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Center tie down in kevlar tripper

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I have two barrels I'd like to secure in my kevlar tripping canoe. It is a Mad River Lamoille. I'm securing the barrels so they can act as floatation. Essentially two stiff center airbags.

The barrels are too thick to get under the yoke and thwart. I don't like just tying across the gunnels. When swamped the barrels push up and the force pulling across the gunnels is multiplied. Like a tightrope with a big guy in the middle.

I was thinking a couple of center loops are needed. Like in the picture below. Except in a nice canoe, and not using hooked rachet straps ; )

The trick is this is a foam core Kevlar canoe. I'm a little concerned the d rings or loops would pull the top layer of Kevlar away from the foam.

What is the best way to do this?
 

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I don't like just tying across the gunnels. When swamped the barrels push up and the force pulling across the gunnels is multiplied.

I don't think I'd worry about this. I doubt filled barrels have as much flotation force as big empty air bags, and float bags are commonly strung under bag cages attached to, or just under, the gunwales at multiple points in composite whitewater canoes. There may also be an attachment to a D-ring on the floor, which only takes part of the flotation stress because of the multiple cage attachments.

I've never used barrels, so I don't know whether there is some typical way of affixing them. Barrel harness straps attached to the thwarts even if the barrel can't fit under them? I might just leave barrels untied or just tethered if paddling lakes, as opposed to whitewater, because I might want them to float free in a lake dump so I have room to climb back in the canoe.

I'm sure barrel users will have other ideas.
 
I might just leave barrels untied or just tethered if paddling lakes, as opposed to whitewater, because I might want them to float free in a lake dump so I have room to climb back in the canoe.
This is a great topic, especially for a forum that has a solo tripping history. However for the purposes of this discussion let's assume I'm set on using them as flotation.
 
I still wouldn't be concerned with the flotation (pulling) force on some combination of thwart straps/cage and hull D-rings. In all my years of paddling, the only times I've ever had canoes really full of water is when running really big whitewater and staying upright. I've never seen anything bad happen to the gunwales or D-rings in those situations because of full canoe upward flotation forces from the bags. Of course, I've never run really hard whitewater in a foam/composite canoe full of blue barrels and tripping gear, and wouldn't.

In all other occasions of dumps in whitewater and lakes I've seen and experienced, the canoe ends up upside-down, so there is no force at all on the gunwale or floor attachments. If you are close to shore, you can swim or have other canoeists pull or push the canoe to shore while it remains upside-down. If you are not close to shore and have no one else to perform a canoe-over-canoe or other rescue with you, then there are techniques to flip the canoe right-side up without much water ending up in the canoe. A little water in the canoe is not going to put much stress on some combo of gunwale attachments and D-rings.

Meanwhile, tied-in gear barrels would make a canoe-over-canoe rescue more difficult because of the weight.

In sum, if I were worried about stress on my gunwales and D-rings—which I've already said I wouldn't—my decision on this matter would depend a lot on whether I was paddling alone or with others, whether I'm on lakes or whitewater, how close I typically am to shore, and how skilled my group is or I am with canoe rescue/flipping techniques to dump water out.
 
We make large crossings, where the shore is more than half mile away. We paddle in the ocean too.

I had a swim during the pandemic. It was my first real swim in over 20 years. I was taking a break near shore and sat on the thwart to rest. It broke off and I swamped before I could get my hands on my paddle. I made four 1/2 mile crossings that day, so it got me thinking.

So I went home and practiced in the pool. I was able to do the slosh the water and re-enter method. But it was exhausting, especially when I did it without a bailing scoop. And I was in the water a long time. Too long for anything but the summer.

I was able to do the flip over my head method, but it seem to sketchy for bad conditions.

More importantly I learned reentering the canoe without flotation is really difficult. I learned I needed to bail almost completely dry or the boat would sink again if I dipped the gunnels under.

So I concluded that unless I'm goofing off near shore I need to wear my life jacket and carry flotation.

When I carry gear in the canoe I don't have room for the airbag. So this winter I'm trying to outfit two barrels to carry lighter gear. I'll give them a test in the pool. But since I can't get them under the yoke and thwart the outfitting is more challenging.
 
It is actually easier to roll or reenter a canoe with no flotation in it. The only problem is that it is impossible to do anything with it once you have. Both gunwales will be underwater amidships so it can't be bailed or pumped out.


The more flotation you have in the canoe the less water can get in it and stay in it obviously. But the flotation also makes the boat ride very high above the surface as you try to roll it up. A canoe with no flotation is as easy to rotate as a floating log.
Sometimes you have to accept a happy medium of flotation that is enough to allow the boat to be reentered and bailed but not so much that it becomes beyond you ability to reenter it.

As for securing the barrels, I agree with Glenn. Whitewater open boaters have been securing their flotation under transverse cord lacing for decades and it works just fine. There will be virtually no stress on the gunwales once the canoe has capsized. You do need to exert some caution with air bags. These lose considerable volume when exposed to cold water and gain considerable volume when dry and hot. I know of people who have actually broken gunwales when they pulled their canoe up out of the cold water of a whitewater stream on a hot summer day for an extended lunch break without checking the need to vent some air. That would not be a concern with rigid storage containers like barrels.


IMG_2062.JPG

For what it is worth, I have been securing blue barrels under transverse lacing (3 mm nylon accessory cord) for years with no problems. I usually put the barrels in transversely when possible and also run a nylon webbing "keeper strap" down the center of the canoe, over the gear, and secured to an anchor bonded to the hull bottom. I usually have air bags of some size (I have a variety of sizes) in the stems of the canoes where I really don't want gear anyway. If I am carrying a lot of gear these are usually the smaller 32" tandem end bags. The bags and all the gear gets secured under the lacing and keeper strap and it is very secure. Here is an example. The barrels are 30 liter capacity. Also shown is a Granite Gear Traditional #3.5 pack and a fairly large Polar Bear soft cooler.
 
"an anchor bonded to the hull bottom"

I've done the vinyl backed anchors in Royalex boats. What's the best way to do this in a Kevlar boat?
 
Anchors held same way in Kevlar/laminate but the appropriate epoxy (likely gel-flex for the vinyl) to the abraded hull rather than vinyl adhesive.

Barrels will provide flotation because they contain air and will take on minimal water when in the water (hopefully). They will displace water because they have volume and will be held in the canoe - therefore less bailing.

The weight of the gear inside the barrel will have little to do with either displacement or flotation.
 
I've done the vinyl backed anchors in Royalex boats. What's the best way to do this in a Kevlar boat?

Dr. Blanc has likely done this a lot more recently than I have. In the old days we used Vina Bond, but I don't think it's available any more. I'd guess an epoxy like G/Flex would work.

I actually prefer the hard ABS D-rings over the vinyl-backed round or rectangular patches for aesthetic reasons, although you do get less contact area with them. I mean these . . .

ABS D-ring.jpg

. . . which you can buy from Clipper Canoe in this lashing kit or separately if you call them. They recommend 3M Scotch Weld for fiberglass canoes.

********************

As a tangent, I thought this picture was very apropos for the backyard of a surgeon. A loaded Curtis Canoe, a hammock, and in between . . . a white operating table with some sort of entrails on it.

IMG_2062.JPG
 
"an anchor bonded to the hull bottom"

I've done the vinyl backed anchors in Royalex boats. What's the best way to do this in a Kevlar boat?
Some people will tell you that vinyl adhesive will only bond to PVC such as the vinyl layer of Royalex. I have found that not to be the case. I have used vinyl adhesive to bond in many vinyl backed D rings and anchors in composite canoes constructed with vinylester resin and it has held up just fine, at least as well as it has in Royalex boats. In the golden days of yore I used Vynabond. Nowadays I use either Vinyl-tec 2000 or HH-66.

G Flex epoxy will also work very well but if you ever need to replace or reposition the anchor it will be a lot harder to do so than if you use vinyl adhesive. And you can count on the anchor being destroyed, whereas I have released, cleaned up, and rebonded many vinyl-backed anchors using vinyl adhesive. Also, G Flex does not produce an immediate tack bond like vinyl adhesive does so you need to tape the anchor in place so it does not move while the epoxy cures, and it is best to apply a bit of weight to it while the epoxy is curing.
I used quite a few of the old gray, hard plastic (polycarbonate?) anchors back in the day. I bonded these in with a two-part urethane "structural adhesive" made by 3M corporation. The D rings were made by Voyageur and there was the 1 inch type with the nylon D ring and a heavier 2 inch wide version with a stainless steel D ring. When Voyageur went bust Marlin Bayes of Western Canoeing and Kayaking (that makes Clipper Canoes) bought the mold for the one inch type but not the two inch. I do not know of a source for the larger D rings of this type or for the smaller ones apart from Clipper Canoe.

I suspect that G Flex epoxy would work to bond these in but I never tried it so I don't know for sure. The hard plastic bases bonded in with the 3M structural adhesive were very stiff and they had a reputation for causing cracks at the ends of the base in Royalex boats because of the stress risers they caused. I have not heard of that happening with the smaller one inch variety. If you are north of the border in a location where it is easier for you to purchase from Clipper Canoe without high shipping costs, you will probably also be able to order from a Northwater dealer. If it came down to a choice I would prefer to use Northwater's lightweight one inch webbing "D ring" mounted on a vinyl patch rather than the hard plastic variety but that is just my personal preference as I like to retain the ability to remove, reposition, or replace anchors if it becomes necessary.
 
In our Minnesota 3 that was raced last year. We used a "sleep hammock" right behind the bow seat. It was ripstop nylon snapped to the outside of the gunnels. It would hold +/- 200lb person laying on it. I would assume this would work in the opposite direction with an outward force. Change the material to some kind of netting maybe. And not glue anything down to the floor?

8FF3595F-9336-413C-ADDF-BD3CA0C357D3.jpeg
 
I have two barrels I'd like to secure in my kevlar tripping canoe. It is a Mad River Lamoille. I'm securing the barrels so they can act as floatation. Essentially two stiff center airbags.

The barrels are too thick to get under the yoke and thwart. I don't like just tying across the gunnels. When swamped the barrels push up and the force pulling across the gunnels is multiplied. Like a tightrope with a big guy in the middle.

I was thinking a couple of center loops are needed. Like in the picture below. Except in a nice canoe, and not using hooked rachet straps ; )

The trick is this is a foam core Kevlar canoe. I'm a little concerned the d rings or loops would pull the top layer of Kevlar away from the foam.

What is the best way to do this?
To bad you couldn't get a pair of matching "straight sided barrels" like the rite hand one , then make a pair of T shaped yokes with curves cut to fit between the barrels forcing them out to the sides . Then secure to the gunwales , OR i wonder if you could pass a cheap/thin nylon ratchet strap completely around the bottom of the hull , and tie them down ? How much additional drag could a less than 30 thousands strap create ?
 
In our Minnesota 3 that was raced last year. We used a "sleep hammock" right behind the bow seat. It was ripstop nylon snapped to the outside of the gunnels. It would hold +/- 200lb person laying on it. I would assume this would work in the opposite direction with an outward force. Change the material to some kind of netting maybe. And not glue anything down to the floor?

View attachment 134264

So Clint, was this a day race? It looks like the bow cover is taped down. If it was overnight, how did you get bow bags in and out?
 
In our Minnesota 3 that was raced last year. We used a "sleep hammock" right behind the bow seat. It was ripstop nylon snapped to the outside of the gunnels. It would hold +/- 200lb person laying on it. I would assume this would work in the opposite direction with an outward force. Change the material to some kind of netting maybe. And not glue anything down to the floor?

View attachment 134264

So Clint, was this a day race? It looks like the bow cover is taped down. If it was overnight, how did you get bow bags in and out?

@scoutergriz and @Erica

This was a multiday race (260 miles Texas Water Safari). Finished in 84 hours. We did not have a spray cover for the front of the boat. And we was fixing to cross about 6 miles of open water in a bay. So I took one of our mylar blankets and tapped it to the front to make a temporary spray skirt.
 
@scoutergriz and @Erica

This was a multiday race (260 miles Texas Water Safari). Finished in 84 hours. We did not have a spray cover for the front of the boat. And we was fixing to cross about 6 miles of open water in a bay. So I took one of our mylar blankets and tapped it to the front to make a temporary spray skirt.
Where'd you get that quote from??? I haven't even commented here
 
It was in my post. Probably an accident on my part. I have trouble negotiating the quote function and probably something got mixed up on the quote clipboard.
 
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