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Pakcanoe 165 roll-able. Looking at buying one for NFCT.

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Hi, I am newish to the forum and have been lurking for a few months. Now I have some questions.

I used to canoe quite a bit when I was younger and living near the Adirondacks. For some reason I canoed like I backpacked: pack light and eat granola/freeze dried fruits and cook on a camp stove. Now, much older, ready for adventure, and a good amount of vacation time, I realized how much nicer canoe camping can be: steaks, reflector oven bread, large camp fires, chairs, and screen tents. I then stumbled up on the Northern Forest Canoe Trail.

Ok, so now I am obsessed with through paddling the NFCT sometime in the next couple years, but first I have some shorter trips to take and I am looking for canoe advice.

This summer I am planning a trip on the last portion of the NFTC, Moosehead to Fort Kent in June, over 10 - 14 days. I am supplying the canoes for 4 or us, so I bought a used Dagger Legend 16 foot. Now I am looking for a second tandem boat. This one I would like to be more of a lake boat with better speed and tracking, be 60ish lbs or less, handle some cargo, yet be a good price. Both boats I plan on keeping after the trip, so I want to make sure they have different strengths. I would also like the second boat to be a good option for a solo through paddle of the NFCT. The canoes I am considering are a 16 foot Esquif, the Esquif Avalon, used Royalex Penobscot, and, new to the list, the 165 Pakcanoe. I would love a high priced feather weight boat, but I have already spent too much.

Here are the reasons for the 165 Pak Canoe. It is lightish at 54 lbs. It is narrow, so good for solo trips. It has a conversion kit to make it slightly wider and stabler for rocky rivers. It can be packed up, so if I considered pampering myself and wanted to stay in a nice hotel, I could take it right into the room with me. This hotel option sounds better to me if I decide to also start the trip from the western end of the Erie Canal and linking it by bus between Utica and Old Forge. Still considering this, but it is not the top of my list.

So if any of the above sounds crazy let me know. I am just getting back into canoeing and leaving my sea kayaking days behind me.

I have a few questions if anyone has experience with the Pak canoes, but would appreciate any advice.

1) Rolling the Pak canoe? From the videos I have watched about the NFCT, there are frequent spots where you can use wheels to portage your canoe. In them I see people carrying the heavier items in a pack, but leaving some items in the canoe (near the center). Can you do this with the pack canoe? I would think you could damage it since there is a lot of flex. Has anyone tried the alternative of carrying collapsible wagon's? When reaching a wheel-able portage, collapse the canoe, and put it in the wagon. Perhaps carry two wagons and daisy chain one to the back of the other.

2) Does anyone have any idea how easy it is to get back into a Pak canoe? When solo canoeing I bring my kayak paddle in the boat and my kayak float bag. This makes it easier for me to get back in. I secure the paddle to a thwart and it creates a pontoon I can get my leg onto. With the flexibility of the Pak canoe, I wonder how easy it is to get back in when paddling solo? Or even tandem.

3) You can buy a conversion kit for the 165 that expands the width a bit. So it is more stable and rides higher for rougher waters. It this worth it? I mean should I get one just to convert from lake use to faster waters along the NFCT.

One last question. I hear the Pak canoes are durable, but how would it be going down a river like the Allagash. I know the Penobscot and Avalon will slide over rocks, but I read that the bottom of the Pak canoes slide less, so you get stuck.

thanks in advance for the feedback.

James
 
I had a PakCanoe 170 and it handles much diferently than a hard shell canoe
It acts more like a raft and rides waves rather than cut through them
They are the go to for rocky Arctic rivers that make the Allagash seem
like a training wheels
Because the bottom
flexes they are less likely to be stuck and the Hypalon is tough
All should have a repair kit ; field repairs are easy
Whether you can widen the gunwales a bit may be problematic as much of the strucure is aluminum tubing that doesnt want to be crimped. Anyway I have not tried it
Everything on the AWW is cartable
NE Carry is on a dirt road
Now the kicker
Mud Pond Carry . Google it
 
Wish you had been here at Canoecopia. I've had a lot of chat with a NCFT several time through paddler as well as NCFT executive director. I have some thoughts but not able to share now. It's at top of my list too.

I do think you want a solo composite canoe and portage wheels, but more later.
 
...
Everything on the AWW is cartable
NE Carry is on a dirt road
Now the kicker
Mud Pond Carry . Google it

The Mud Pond Carry is a religious experience! (Rather like flagellation ...) I seriously think it's worth doing for its own sake. It really feels like it hasn't changed much since Thoreau got lost there in 1857. The trail is mostly a ditch filled with water, and when you find yourself going with the flow you know you've gone over the height of land.

...

Here are the reasons for the 165 Pak Canoe. It is lightish at 54 lbs. It is narrow, so good for solo trips. It has a conversion kit to make it slightly wider and stabler for rocky rivers. It can be packed up, so if I considered pampering myself and wanted to stay in a nice hotel, I could take it right into the room with me. This hotel option sounds better to me if I decide to also start the trip from the western end of the Erie Canal and linking it by bus between Utica and Old Forge. Still considering this, but it is not the top of my list.

So if any of the above sounds crazy let me know. I am just getting back into canoeing and leaving my sea kayaking days behind me.

I have a few questions if anyone has experience with the Pak canoes, but would appreciate any advice.

1) Rolling the Pak canoe? From the videos I have watched about the NFCT, there are frequent spots where you can use wheels to portage your canoe. In them I see people carrying the heavier items in a pack, but leaving some items in the canoe (near the center). Can you do this with the pack canoe? I would think you could damage it since there is a lot of flex. Has anyone tried the alternative of carrying collapsible wagon's? When reaching a wheel-able portage, collapse the canoe, and put it in the wagon. Perhaps carry two wagons and daisy chain one to the back of the other.

I've only soloed a Pak Canoe once, but I was pleasantly surprised. It's different than a rigid hull, definitely not fast, but not a total dog either.

At the start of one trip we watched my friend assemble it, and I was surprised at how long it took. He'd forgotten the manual and was doing it by smell, but there were just a lot of connections to make. (We had a lot of fun heckling him about how long it was taking as he has an engineering degree from a prominent school.) I'm sure if you do it frequently it gets faster, but I don't think it's ever as quick as pitching a tent. Something like the NFCT requires a lot of paddle/portage transitions, so the time required to change modes is a consideration.
 
" I am considering are a 16 foot Esquif, the Esquif Avalon, used Royalex Penobscot"

My thought is the Avalon is narrower, so a little more pleasant solo when lightly loaded.

You might also consider a used quality fiberglass canoe. Good ones weigh about the same as Royalex but are much stiffer for great flat water paddling. Yet they are still durable enough for mild rivers.
 
Most people who have done it seem to think portage carts are a near necessity. Make sure canoe is wide enough for cart to fit in it.

Also, as much as I dislike Facebook, the NFCT through paddler group is worth joining and putting up with Facebook.

Also, note that it seems a lot of people use shuttles, even to the extent of shuttling an up river section and paddling it down river, and being shuttled back to continue. That's like most of Vermont. A lot (?) also get shuttled on the long portage's. I was a little dismayed by all the vehicular intervention. Not sure I'd do it (partly for the cost). There will be bony miles.

Other than weight, I think the Esquif Echo would be perfect. If I attempt it, I'll probably use either my SR Tranquility or Swift Prospector 14 pack. Probably the Swift but don't like the inevitable scratches - it has none. Ugh.
 
Most people who have done it seem to think portage carts are a near necessity. Make sure canoe is wide enough for cart to fit in it.

Also, as much as I dislike Facebook, the NFCT through paddler group is worth joining and putting up with Facebook.

Also, note that it seems a lot of people use shuttles, even to the extent of shuttling an up river section and paddling it down river, and being shuttled back to continue. That's like most of Vermont. A lot (?) also get shuttled on the long portage's. I was a little dismayed by all the vehicular intervention. Not sure I'd do it (partly for the cost). There will be bony miles.

Other than weight, I think the Esquif Echo would be perfect. If I attempt it, I'll probably use either my SR Tranquility or Swift Prospector 14 pack. Probably the Swift but don't like the inevitable scratches - it has none. Ugh.
The section in question is all downriver
Of course a shuttle will be required. It takes a day to set it up. Four to five hour shuttle on logging roads. Its about 120 miles
Living locally I am
fairly knowledgeable about the Allagash. It high water we use a Kevlar canoe
In low water anything but Kev or alu
above 1500 cfs at Allagash village rocks are avoidable and not numerous
Below 500 you have a hiking trip
At 3750 stopping is an issue
Seldom see carts on the Allagash
Would be useful on the NE carry
If water is low on the W Branch of the Penobscot beware Thoreaus Rips just above Pine Island Stream.It appears only at low water and is very technical. and a gear eater
 
James, I have no experience with PakCanoe or any other folding canoe, but would like to welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please add your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

I believe @Mason has experience with Pak Canoes. He may show up in this thread or you can contact him by private conversation.
 
I was addressing:

All 700+ miles. I suppose having a crew and swapping canoes is a possibility, but beyond my means.
Its been done!
The most memorable was a young lady whi through paddled it but was stopped on the Allagash for having an illegal boat
Boats must meet certain size constraints
She contacted the NFCT ofice and somehow arranged for delivery of a suitable canoe
Shuttles or resupply typically done by friends as outside the Blue Line liveries are rare
 
stopped on the Allagash for having an illegal boat

Wow, I knew that the Allagash has some silly rules but this one seems clearly absurd. The page at the link below requires the width of a canoe "at the widest point shall not exceed 20% of the craft's overall length." This means that the 11 foot and 13 foot versions of the Old Town Fifty Pound / Trapper models are not permitted. The image below shows their dimensions from the 1938 catalog. These canoes have been in regular use on many other wild rivers for over a century without any significant issues. I do not understand the significant public benefit in having a short or wide canoes eliminated from the Allagash. Kayaks are permitted to be up to 25%. [End Rant]

Benson




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James, I have no experience with PakCanoe or any other folding canoe, but would like to welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please add your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

I believe @Mason has experience with Pak Canoes. He may show up in this thread or you can contact him by private conversation.
I have a 17 PakCanoe. YC sort of sums it up. I haven't paddled the smaller ones, though a friend has used the 15 as solo. With a bit of practice, you can assemble them in about 30 min, maybe a bit less in disassembly. The 17 is pretty beamy, I think 37". I think the 16.5 is a bit narrower. It is a truck, but ultimately suitable for remote area expeditions for what it was designed. Regarding using a cart, you'd have to limit the payload to directly over the cart. They are flexible, and loads towards the end would probably permanently bend the tubes. They noticeably bend from the yoke during portages. They are entirely adequate for whitewater, though you do risk damage if you hit something. Aluminum tubes are replaceable, skin is repairable, but I wouldn't use one for day trip whitewater when there are much more suitable boats available.
 
I think James was suggesting a wagon and disassembling and reassembling at each portage. I think one would regret choosing that option. A lightweight solo, a portage cart, and figure out how to do it all in 2 trips if trail is not suitable for using cart. I lean toward a smaller pack to carry with canoe, and a larger pack to carry with cart. Big pack tight behind seat, smaller pack and cart in bow and slide able (with lanyards) to adjust trim. A duffers solution.
 
If I already had an Appalachian for rivers and wanted another canoe I'd really want a stiff composite boat. The problem is the price, and many composite boats are too fragile for the river.

The Clipper Tripper S looks like a great solo/tandem mix. The base fiberglass layup would be awesome for lakes and acceptable for rivers. It appears to be about the same weight and price as the Avalon.

Of course the trick is finding one, you might have to drive to Canada.
 
Wow, I knew that the Allagash has some silly rules but this one seems most absurd. The page at the first link below requires the width of a canoe "at the widest point shall not exceed 20% of the craft's overall length." This means that none of the Old Town Trapper models listed at the second link below are permitted. This design has been in regular use on many other wild rivers for over a century without any significant issues. I fail to see the significant public safety risk in having a short or wide canoe.

Benson




Benson, I think there must be an error in the link to Jerry's page on the 50# canoe models. I have an Old Town 50# from 1938 and the beam is around 35 inches, not 24 inches. That is in line with the beams listed in the Old Town catalog pages shown on Jerry's page.
Mark Z.
 
I think there must be an error in the link to Jerry's page

Yes, there was clearly an error on that page so I have replaced it with the specifications from the 1938 catalog in my previous message. Jerry has just corrected this. Sorry about that,

Benson
 
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I have an older 14 ft PakCanoe, from 1998 when Mad River briefly had a deal with PakBoats to sell their canoes with the Mad River label and also have a 12.5 ft model from that era that was sold with a sit on the bottom seat. At the time I thought the 14ft PakCanoe might serve as a replacement for a royalex solo. I was impressed with how the PakCanoe handled - certainly more flexible but otherwise surprisingly similar in handling to royalex considering that it comes out of a duffle bag. The flexibility allows it to ride over waves more than plunge into them so it is a drier ride in that respect. It does stick to rocks though. I went for a swim on the Big Piney in Arkansas when I got stuck on a rock and leaned the wrong way in trying to figure out where the sticking point was. A royalex canoe probably would have slid off without a problem.

There are a couple of reasons that the PakCanoe did not become my primary canoe. One is the assembly time. It just isn't practical to take time to put it together at a put-in when going on group trips. I've cartopped it for short trips but am not comfortable with hauling it fully assembled for long distances. I don't generally do portage trips but can't imagine assembling and disassembling a PakCanoe at multiple portages in a day. The other reason that it didn't become my main canoe even though I love it is that the ribs can make it uncomfortable for moving around and kneeling, even with foam padding, and harder to mop up mud or sand that gets in the canoe.

When looking into pakcanoes I'd considered getting a 16.5 ft for the versatility of having something that would work solo or tandem, but I don't think it would function very well as a solo for day trips. Without a serious amount of gear along to distribute weight over its length I think you'd be paddling a highly rockered banana boat. For extended solo tripping with a load it would probably function ok, depending on the type of water.
 
Its been done!
The most memorable was a young lady whi through paddled it but was stopped on the Allagash for having an illegal boat
Boats must meet certain size constraints
She contacted the NFCT ofice and somehow arranged for delivery of a suitable canoe
Shuttles or resupply typically done by friends as outside the Blue Line liveries are rare

I remember that, she wrote a great trip report / journal. Here it is


Somebody apparently ratted her out about having a too-small boat (someone with a grudge against short yaks? go figure), but the ranger was cool about it and gave her a "courtesy warning", telling her to add it to her trip memorabilia. They had to write up something since a complaint had been made.
 

Thanks for all the replies. So much information here: from Mud Pond Carry to canoe regulations.

Yellowcanoe

“Whether you can widen the gunwales a bit may be problematic as much of the strucure is aluminum tubing that doesnt want to be crimped. Anyway I have not tried it“

The 165 has an expansion kit that make the floor flatter and the side higher for a more stable ride. It can be ordered as an accessory.


“Mud Pond Carry . Google it”

This has been on my list for a while. I am looking forward to the experience. I expect it will take a whole day. However, I am also torn with the choice of carting up to Allagash Lake as the alternative. I would love to climb the fire tower and I hear the lake is beautiful. This just means I will have to do it twice in order to see both.

goonstroke

“The Mud Pond Carry is a religious experience! (Rather like flagellation ...) “

Yes, I agree. I have to experience it. I almost wish I haven't seen so many videos or it or read so many blogs about doing the carry. I feel it has removed some of the mystery. In today's world you can almost over research a trip. Going into the unknown is rare. On the other hand, it is safer to reduce some of the unknowns.


“Something like the NFCT requires a lot of paddle/portage transitions, so the time required to change modes is a consideration.”

This is great input. I wonder how many miles, if I got one, a portage would need to be to make it worth while to take it apart. I also wonder if it has too much flex for portaging on a cart. Will it fall apart on a file mile portage because of the sag? I mean portaging it on your shoulders upside down is exerting similar stresses as is exerted by the water when paddling, but on a cart it is being held in a limited area and the forces are in the opposite direction.

MrPolin

Thanks for the input. I am now considering fiberglass boats.

billconner


“I was a little dismayed by all the vehicular intervention. Not sure I'd do it (partly for the cost). There will be bony miles. “

I couldn't agree more. I picture myself staying with the river as is as much as humanly possible. However, once on the NFCT I might change my mind. However, I hope to avoid vehicles, so I can say I did it completely under human power.


Thanks everybody for all the information.
 
Do get the NFCT guide book and the Through Paddlers Companion by Katima Saanen. I had the pleasure of speaking to her while at Canoecopia. Lots of first hand experience. And of course their maps. I'm not as comfortble with the app but maybe it makes sense.

I'm in your camp - paddle and portage straight through and no shuttles. (I could change my mind after the 2nd or 3rd 5 mile portage. :) )
 
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