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Beginner WW Canoe but an old kayaker needs advice

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I've been kayaking for close to thirty years class 3-4 occasional 5 if there wasn't anyway around. Not a hair boater just cutting up with river friends down river stuff. I've only been in a ww canoe once and just remembered it was pretty squirrely . Now that Im gray on top i was thinking about making the switch . Does anybody have any suggestions on a boat. I've been looking at a black fly option and a Silverbirch 9.5 convert. I don't know any open boaters to ask , I live in the southeast so most of my rivers are kind of "creeky" drop pools . I feel confident but you know the old dogs saying i'm smart enough to know with new things a beginner is still a beginner. I dig these new plastic boats not really interested in an old style.
 
Chip, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please consider adding your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is in many ways a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

Are you looking to buy new or used? I'm an old and former whitewater canoeist who is not completely up to date on the newest WW canoes, but there are certainly a lot of models to choose from over the past 20 years. Part of it depends on your body size and, aside from that, your preference as to boat length. Some paddlers like longer hulls for more speed.

Esquif has several popular plastic models as does Black Fly. John Kaz is still making top composite open canoes. I don't personally know anything about Silverbirch.
 
Welcome to the group! This is a great site and a GREAT place for info.

I've been paddling whitewater(C1, kayak and OC1) for more decades than I care to think about, but got into (mostly) flatwater and tripping about 8 years ago. I kept around a kayak for whitewater runs, but just this week got an "old school" O.T. H2Pro open whitewater boat that I will be checking out as a whitewater tripper.
You didn't list where you are located, but if you are around the vicinity of western North Carolina you might want to check out the Nantahala Outdoor Center's "Spring Fling" in April. They often have demo boats to try or you might see someone with a canoe you like and quiz them on how it handles and maybe if you could try it out. You may also want to call or email the makers and ask where the nearest dealer is. If you are around Greenville SC, Sunrift Outfitters in Travelers Rest carries Esquif canoes. I looked at a L'Edge in there last week.

Good luck on finding that new canoe and getting wet!
 
I have paddled a fair bit of whitewater up to Class IV, mostly in open boats but a good bit in kayaks. The main differences you will encounter in switching from a kayak to an open boat are independent of the exact boat model and are as follows.

1. You will not have a strong brace on one side.
2. The strokes taken on the two sides of the boat are not symmetrical in whitewater.
3. You will take on water in big waves and usually when going over sizable drops.

The first two factors results in nearly all open boaters having a strong side and a weak side and all but the real experts tend to favor their strong side as much as possible. Although a few open boaters are ambidextrous and can paddle equally effectively on both sides, they are few in number IME.

The fact that an open boat as opposed to a decked boat can quickly take on a very significant weight of water will tend to limit what you can safely run. Some expert open boaters have such a solid roll that they can paddle Class V water, but they are again few in number. And even if you completely pack the open boat with as much flotation as you possibly can, the weight of water that it can take on around your body is still enough to make the boat sluggish and difficult to control. Catching small eddies in a wet boat with a lot of momentum can be very challenging. And even if you develop a solid roll in an open boat, you will still come up wet.

The fact that the strokes are very asymmetrical on the two sides of the boat might pose the greatest challenge initially. Many kayakers going to a C1 or open boat find it difficult to make the boat go straight. That is particularly so for highly rockered hulls, and especially so for today's very short, plastic open boats.
In a kayak you have a relatively symmetrical forward stroke on both sides so the yaw effect of the forward stroke tends to be balanced out when taking normal forward strokes on opposite sides. In a canoe you will need to either combine forward strokes with cross-forward strokes taken on the two sides alternately or in some ratio, or you will need to repeatedly switch paddling sides like a marathon canoe racer, or you will need to combine a forward stroke with some sort of correction stroke added to the stroke on the same side.

Repeatedly switching sides is discouraged by most whitewater open boat instructors. One reason is that there often simply isn't time. Another is that you may lose your grip on the paddle during the switch. Using a forward stroke/correction stroke combo works just fine for flat water canoeing and lesser whitewater but it won't cut it for significant whitewater, especially in today's modern whitewater hulls. In those boats a single forward stroke will turn the canoe 90 degrees or more. Trying to use a forward stroke/correction stroke combo will kill so much forward momentum and slow your stroke cadence so much that you won't be able to cross strong eddy lines when exiting eddies, or climb onto surf waves. To get those little short boats moving from a dead stop in the direction you want will require you to use forward and cross-forward strokes on alternate sides of the boat. Since cross strokes are something you don't usually need to use in a kayak you might not have developed an effective cross-forward stroke. Cross strokes can be ergonomically challenging for most.

To keep those short boats going where you want without wasting too much energy, modern whitewater open boats use "hull carving" to a great extent to paddle in arcs of varying radius. Kayakers use that technique too, of course, but it is perhaps not quite so essential as in a modern whitewater canoe.
I would not necessarily turn your nose up at a longer "old school" whitewater canoe. If you live in the southeast US there should be tons of whitewater canoes going unused because their owners have switched to a short plastic boat. Starting out in that type of boat can make the learning process a little easier because they do not spin in place quite so readily as a more modern canoe. That would allow you to get more comfortable controlling the boat in the kneeling posture and allow you to work on your cross strokes in a somewhat more user-friendly hull. Those older boats can be paddled using more of a "point and shoot" technique on a lot of less-technical whitewater.
As for a specific make and model of canoe, I don't think anyone can offer you a useful suggestion as there are just too many unknown variables and individual preferences also come into play to a huge extent.

I know that the Silver Birch Covert has become very popular in recent years and I have a friend who owns one, but I have never paddled one.
I have a Blackfly Octane 85, which is a somewhat edgier version of the extremely popular Blackfly Option and I like it and prefer it to the Option, but to be honest I usually prefer paddling what you would call and old school design these days. Another very popular hull has been the Esquif L'Edge. There are also the partially decked boats with very low forward and rear decks like the original Spanish Fly, the CU Fly, the Dagger Quake and Aftershock, and the Big Dog Force. All of the above have their fans.
If you have the time and inclination I would try to attend at least a portion of the Ain't Louie Fest (ALF) which should be March 10th to March 18th this year (but I would confirm that if you plan to attend). It usually kicks off with an "over the falls" race on the Tellico Ledges which is from the bridge put-in to just past Baby Falls. Other runs are planned on a daily basis depending on participant desires and water levels. If you go you will likely see just about every variety of whitewater canoe made, old and new. If you go and you are interested in Blackfly canoes try to look up a fellow by the name of Alex Vargas. Alex has been a representative for Blackfly and usually has some of Jeremy Laucks' boats available to try out, or at least he did as of a few years ago. You can find Alex on facebook. You can also check out the FB group titled "GDI".
 
Welcome to the group! This is a great site and a GREAT place for info.

I've been paddling whitewater(C1, kayak and OC1) for more decades than I care to think about, but got into (mostly) flatwater and tripping about 8 years ago. I kept around a kayak for whitewater runs, but just this week got an "old school" O.T. H2Pro open whitewater boat that I will be checking out as a whitewater tripper.
You didn't list where you are located, but if you are around the vicinity of western North Carolina you might want to check out the Nantahala Outdoor Center's "Spring Fling" in April. They often have demo boats to try or you might see someone with a canoe you like and quiz them on how it handles and maybe if you could try it out. You may also want to call or email the makers and ask where the nearest dealer is. If you are around Greenville SC, Sunrift Outfitters in Travelers Rest carries Esquif canoes. I looked at a L'Edge in there last week.

Good luck on finding that new canoe and getting wet!
Thanks for the advice , I'll definitely check out spring splash thats a great idea I had forgotten about that. I'm in Tallulah Falls area that's close. enjoy the H2pro maybe I'll see you out there.
 
Chip, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Also, please consider adding your location to your profile, which will cause it to show under your avatar, as this is in many ways a geographic sport. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

Are you looking to buy new or used? I'm an old and former whitewater canoeist who is not completely up to date on the newest WW canoes, but there are certainly a lot of models to choose from over the past 20 years. Part of it depends on your body size and, aside from that, your preference as to boat length. Some paddlers like longer hulls for more speed.

Esquif has several popular plastic models as does Black Fly. John Kaz is still making top composite open canoes. I don't personally know anything about Silverbirch.
Thank you, the group seems very cool
 
I have paddled a fair bit of whitewater up to Class IV, mostly in open boats but a good bit in kayaks. The main differences you will encounter in switching from a kayak to an open boat are independent of the exact boat model and are as follows.

1. You will not have a strong brace on one side.
2. The strokes taken on the two sides of the boat are not symmetrical in whitewater.
3. You will take on water in big waves and usually when going over sizable drops.

The first two factors results in nearly all open boaters having a strong side and a weak side and all but the real experts tend to favor their strong side as much as possible. Although a few open boaters are ambidextrous and can paddle equally effectively on both sides, they are few in number IME.

The fact that an open boat as opposed to a decked boat can quickly take on a very significant weight of water will tend to limit what you can safely run. Some expert open boaters have such a solid roll that they can paddle Class V water, but they are again few in number. And even if you completely pack the open boat with as much flotation as you possibly can, the weight of water that it can take on around your body is still enough to make the boat sluggish and difficult to control. Catching small eddies in a wet boat with a lot of momentum can be very challenging. And even if you develop a solid roll in an open boat, you will still come up wet.

The fact that the strokes are very asymmetrical on the two sides of the boat might pose the greatest challenge initially. Many kayakers going to a C1 or open boat find it difficult to make the boat go straight. That is particularly so for highly rockered hulls, and especially so for today's very short, plastic open boats.
In a kayak you have a relatively symmetrical forward stroke on both sides so the yaw effect of the forward stroke tends to be balanced out when taking normal forward strokes on opposite sides. In a canoe you will need to either combine forward strokes with cross-forward strokes taken on the two sides alternately or in some ratio, or you will need to repeatedly switch paddling sides like a marathon canoe racer, or you will need to combine a forward stroke with some sort of correction stroke added to the stroke on the same side.

Repeatedly switching sides is discouraged by most whitewater open boat instructors. One reason is that there often simply isn't time. Another is that you may lose your grip on the paddle during the switch. Using a forward stroke/correction stroke combo works just fine for flat water canoeing and lesser whitewater but it won't cut it for significant whitewater, especially in today's modern whitewater hulls. In those boats a single forward stroke will turn the canoe 90 degrees or more. Trying to use a forward stroke/correction stroke combo will kill so much forward momentum and slow your stroke cadence so much that you won't be able to cross strong eddy lines when exiting eddies, or climb onto surf waves. To get those little short boats moving from a dead stop in the direction you want will require you to use forward and cross-forward strokes on alternate sides of the boat. Since cross strokes are something you don't usually need to use in a kayak you might not have developed an effective cross-forward stroke. Cross strokes can be ergonomically challenging for most.

To keep those short boats going where you want without wasting too much energy, modern whitewater open boats use "hull carving" to a great extent to paddle in arcs of varying radius. Kayakers use that technique too, of course, but it is perhaps not quite so essential as in a modern whitewater canoe.
I would not necessarily turn your nose up at a longer "old school" whitewater canoe. If you live in the southeast US there should be tons of whitewater canoes going unused because their owners have switched to a short plastic boat. Starting out in that type of boat can make the learning process a little easier because they do not spin in place quite so readily as a more modern canoe. That would allow you to get more comfortable controlling the boat in the kneeling posture and allow you to work on your cross strokes in a somewhat more user-friendly hull. Those older boats can be paddled using more of a "point and shoot" technique on a lot of less-technical whitewater.
As for a specific make and model of canoe, I don't think anyone can offer you a useful suggestion as there are just too many unknown variables and individual preferences also come into play to a huge extent.

I know that the Silver Birch Covert has become very popular in recent years and I have a friend who owns one, but I have never paddled one.
I have a Blackfly Octane 85, which is a somewhat edgier version of the extremely popular Blackfly Option and I like it and prefer it to the Option, but to be honest I usually prefer paddling what you would call and old school design these days. Another very popular hull has been the Esquif L'Edge. There are also the partially decked boats with very low forward and rear decks like the original Spanish Fly, the CU Fly, the Dagger Quake and Aftershock, and the Big Dog Force. All of the above have their fans.
If you have the time and inclination I would try to attend at least a portion of the Ain't Louie Fest (ALF) which should be March 10th to March 18th this year (but I would confirm that if you plan to attend). It usually kicks off with an "over the falls" race on the Tellico Ledges which is from the bridge put-in to just past Baby Falls. Other runs are planned on a daily basis depending on participant desires and water levels. If you go you will likely see just about every variety of whitewater canoe made, old and new. If you go and you are interested in Blackfly canoes try to look up a fellow by the name of Alex Vargas. Alex has been a representative for Blackfly and usually has some of Jeremy Laucks' boats available to try out, or at least he did as of a few years ago. You can find Alex on facebook. You can also check out the FB group titled "GDI".
Thank you very much, that was very useful ill look into "Aint Louie Fest " for sure.
 
Thanks for the advice , I'll definitely check out spring splash thats a great idea I had forgotten about that. I'm in Tallulah Falls area that's close. enjoy the H2pro maybe I'll see you out there.
Being in Tallulah Falls places you in a great area for hitting the creeks! Good luck on finding your canoe and joining the single blade crowd.

Are you more interested in river running, playing or a mix of both? There are a lot of canoes that do one or the other well and some canoes that do both nicely but don't excel at either. The newer canoes seem a bit more specialized (in general), but there are a number of older designs that still do well for most waters. Keep an eye on Craigslist and other sources to see what pops up.
 
Thanks, I'm more of just a river runner. The more gray it turns up top the more interested i get in fishing behind the waves than playing in front of them.
 
Thanks, I'm more of just a river runner. The more gray it turns up top the more interested i get in fishing behind the waves than playing in front of them.
If you are primarily a river runner and are looking for a boat that is whitewater capable but not too terribly inefficient on the flats, I would reconsider your preference for a modern, short polyethylene WW canoe. The short plastic boats will turn on a dime and are good for technical whitewater but they are a drag if you anticipate paddling longer pools.

Old school 3 meter (or longer) whitewater designs are considerably more efficient.
 
Something else to consider; if you are go to be fishing in the eddies, you will probably be wanting to sit instead of kneel. Most full-on whitewater canoes are going to be set up with a pedestal and thigh straps which are great for maneuvering in whitewater, but REALLY limit your ability to move around in a canoe. A true whitewater canoe like the Option or 9.5 Convert are really at the extreme end of the canoe spectrum and highly specialized. They will be great for running the rapids, but will not be very relaxing if trying to fish; being locked into a quick turning, edgy canoe will keep your attention on paddling.

I agree with pblanc about the older, longer designs for river tripping. I just picked up a Old town H2Pro (13'2') made back in '92 as my downriver tripping boat for a planned (well in the planning process) trip on the French Broad from start to it's end with everything from Class 1 flats to a Class 5 drop. I am also looking at a Mad River ME, a great WW slalom canoe thirty years back and can still turn just as quickly as it did then. There is also a fully outfitted Dagger Outrage X for sale on Craigslist in Belton SC. These will be kneeling canoes, but if you are planning to sit while fishing, you may have to give up some maneuverability in a trade-off to stability and look at something like a Prospector design.

Good luck on your search.
 
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A lot of older Royalex whitewater canoes are 13' plus 1-2". That is because at the time they were designed the minimum length for sanctioned whitewater open boat slalom racing was 4 meters so that length allowed the owners to compete in the Royalex classes.


Some of the earliest whitewater solo boat designs were a bit longer still including the Whitesell Piranha, the Blue Hole Suburst and Sunburst II, and the Mad River ME. Some of these older designs make good river tripping boats and they are still fully whitewater capable.

A partial list of such boats includes the Whitesell Piranha and Descender, the Mohawk Solo 13, Solo 14, and XL13, the Old Town H2Pro, the Blue Hole Sunburst and Sunburst II, the Mad River ME, the Dagger Caper, Encore, and Impulse
 
Maybe it's because I'm old and ran everything in what are now considered the longer and "older" boats, but I personally prefer them for river running as opposed to the highly specialized and very short modern "play" boats. You can play plenty in any of the canoes listed by pblanc, plus they generally are faster, more easily paddled on flat water and, as SouthernKevlar points out, can be more stable and roomy for gear-laden trips or fishing activities.
 
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