Seat setup weight

[dogbrain]

I recently changed out gunwales and seat in an effort to reduce the weight of my kite. Going back a few years, I ripped out the pedestal seat I had originally installed in my Kite and installed a contour ash seat I made and hung it from the gunwales. The original seat is from a Carbon Wenonah Prism, so I assume this is their lighest option. The frame is aluminum and the seat is quite small and made of laminated carbon fiber. I removed this seat mostly because I like to kneel about half the time to take pressure off my lower back. Kneeling with this pedestal seat is next to impossible and somewhat dangerous. I assumed at the time that I had added a bit of weight in the process, but at the time I was more interested in paddling comfort than weight.


Wenonah Prism carbon seat


Ash contour seat.


At some point in the recent past I experimented with making a laminated contour seat. I used a total of 5 layers, 3 basswood and 2 ash to make the seat a little over 3/4" thick. In addition to the seat, I reduced the hanging bolt size from 1/4" to 3/16".


For comparison, I also weighed a regular flat cherry seat since I had one hanging on the wall. As a side note, don't web a seat until after you've cut it to length, just saying!

Some surprising results (sorry canadians, sticking with english units here):

- New laminated seat with all hardware and spacers: 1# 14oz

- Carbon and aluminum wenonah pedestal seat: 2# 14oz

- Ash contour seat, no hardware (this has been cut a bit smaller to fit in my Sea Wind): 2# 2oz

- Cherry seat, no hardware (a little smaller than the new seat): 1# 15oz

The winner is obviously the laminated seat. It was a little extra work, but now that I have a form it's easy enough to make more. The surprise is how heavy the wenonah seat is. I wouldn't have guessed that. Ash seat, heavy and the cherry seat a little less so. The laminated seat is a little more flexy than the ash, but I bounced on it a little and I don't see it failing unless I do a full flop on it.

Mark

 

[Alan Gage]

I'm not surprised on the weight of the Wenonah but then again I've built a few sliders. There's a lot extra components in a sliding seat and the longer the travel the more the weight.

If I remember right my sliders come in right around 2# with the seat attached. The seat itself is about 6oz. I prefer the small bucket size. I can't tell if yours is the larger or smaller. Most tripping boats get the larger seat and racing boats the small. I make my pedestals narrow enough that I can kneel around them comfortably. I put a bigger bucket on one of my pedestal and my feet would hang up a little when kneeling.

I know a fixed seat would be lighter and easier but the adjustability is worth it to me.

Nice job on the laminated seat!

Alan

 

[wingnut]

Good looking contoured seat. Getting the weight down on a laminated seat is something I've been thinking about doing for quite a while but have not started yet. After looking at a lot of different types of wood, comparing weight to strength, I think my first attempt would be all WRC. I know most peoples first thought would be, it's not strong enough and I hope you don't get a splinter stuck in your behind when you try it out. But I really think that by laminating 6, 1/8" strips with epoxy it will be strong enough and cut down a bit of weight too.

 

[dogbrain]

I'm not surprised on the weight of the Wenonah but then again I've built a few sliders. There's a lot extra components in a sliding seat and the longer the travel the more the weight.

If I remember right my sliders come in right around 2# with the seat attached. The seat itself is about 6oz. I prefer the small bucket size. I can't tell if yours is the larger or smaller. Most tripping boats get the larger seat and racing boats the small. I make my pedestals narrow enough that I can kneel around them comfortably. I put a bigger bucket on one of my pedestal and my feet would hang up a little when kneeling.

I know a fixed seat would be lighter and easier but the adjustability is worth it to me.

Nice job on the laminated seat!

Alan

It's the small bucket seat.

 

[dogbrain]

Good looking contoured seat. Getting the weight down on a laminated seat is something I've been thinking about doing for quite a while but have not started yet. After looking at a lot of different types of wood, comparing weight to strength, I think my first attempt would be all WRC. I know most peoples first thought would be, it's not strong enough and I hope you don't get a splinter stuck in your behind when you try it out. But I really think that by laminating 6, 1/8" strips with epoxy it will be strong enough and cut down a bit of weight too.

Thanks wingnut. The laminated seat has noticeably more flex than the ash. If built the same dimensions, I think an all wrc would flex more and be more likely to break, but that's my opinion. You might have to go thicker and wider to get the strength, but it depends on the maximum force exerted on it by the paddler and how much you like to kneel if it does break. A different combination of woods might be stronger or lighter, but I think all wrc might stretch that to the limit. Make one and let us know how it works.

Mark

 

[wingnut]

Will do. I saw a laminated seat shape I thought might be more comfortable where the rear had less contour than the front, angling the seat lower in the front. That's the one I'll try.

 

[Cruiser]

Just doing up a new set of forms for my seat WingNut, that is exactly what I like to do as well. I also do the contour and webbing all the way to the edge .... I always seem to get stuck sitting on a seat corner otherwise.

 

[gumpus]

Hey dogbrain, just food for thought...have you seen the recent Swift seats where they have side pods with both a high and low position? It's pretty slick if you like to switch between sitting and kneeling and it would eliminate the seat drops and hardware altogether and with your DIY skills you could easily adapt your laminated seat to the Swift side pods.

Some fun stuff on their parts list. Note the carbon fiber removable yoke (yum). Prices are Canadian I think.

https://swiftcanoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/2020SwiftPartsPricelist.pdf

 

[scoutergriz]

Gumpus those are Canadian prices, and occasionally you can get returns or seconds for about half the list price. Bill Jr is a great guy and will try and help you if you're in a tight budget!

 

[Jim Dodd]

I've used snow shoe cord on all but one canoe seat. The Black webbing is comfortable, and a lot easier to install on a frame.

My frames are a little over built, and the spacing from front to back, is generous enough to allow me to shift fore and aft to adjust trim, and still be comfortable.
Here is a pic of two seats. The small one was built as a replacement for a Bell Magic, using the existing holes drilled in the gunnels.
Note the other is how I make mine.


Contouring the seat also helps if you like to heel over a little to one side.

Comfort, is the name of this game !

Nice comparison Dogbrain !

Jim

 

[gumpus]

Gumpus those are Canadian prices, and occasionally you can get returns or seconds for about half the list price. Bill Jr is a great guy and will try and help you if you're in a tight budget!

I'm a Swift fan (I have 2) and am really curious to try the new 14.8 and 15.8 in pack boat and "performance solo" configuration. I bought one Swift solo in London Ontario and am close enough to do it again if that's possible. In the US they are really expensive (see US price list) but in Canada they look like a bargain (like $1000 US less expensive for me).

https://swiftcanoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020SwiftUSSolo.pdf

 

[goonstroke]

I'm a Swift fan (I have 2) and am really curious to try the new 14.8 and 15.8 in pack boat and "performance solo" configuration. I bought one Swift solo in London Ontario and am close enough to do it again if that's possible. In the US they are really expensive (see US price list) but in Canada they look like a bargain (like $1000 US less expensive for me).
https://swiftcanoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020SwiftUSSolo.pdf

This is a bit off topic for a seat thread, but how much of a drill was it to bring a new boat back across the border? Was it like a flat rate duty or something? With 1.4 loonie to the greenback there are a lot of temptations up there, or there will be when the border is open to marauding gringos. All my boats are domestic, maybe I need to diversify the fleet...

 

[wingnut]

How much contour difference between the front and the back rails on your seat Cruiser? Some people like to cant the seat 1/2" lower on the front when they hang it. I was thinking that would be my target. I know your keeping your current build on a strict diet, any Ideas for a lighter seat or hanging method?

 

[dogbrain]

Hey dogbrain, just food for thought...have you seen the recent Swift seats where they have side pods with both a high and low position? It's pretty slick if you like to switch between sitting and kneeling and it would eliminate the seat drops and hardware altogether and with your DIY skills you could easily adapt your laminated seat to the Swift side pods.

Some fun stuff on their parts list. Note the carbon fiber removable yoke (yum). Prices are Canadian I think.

https://swiftcanoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/2020SwiftPartsPricelist.pdf

Gumpus, I'm not seeing those seats on the Swift site, do you have a link? Ambitious price on that yoke, can't say I'd ever spend even 1/4 that amount on one.

Mark

 

[Jim Dodd]

How much contour difference between the front and the back rails on your seat Cruiser? Some people like to cant the seat 1/2" lower on the front when they hang it. I was thinking that would be my target. I know your keeping your current build on a strict diet, any Ideas for a lighter seat or hanging method?

Brian (Cruiser) may have missed this ?

I think he will mount his seats to the hull. That will likely be the lightest.

1/2" - 3/4" drop on the front edge or thereabouts, should be fine. Not enough, and it bites into the leg, too much and you slide off .

A thought ! If you lower the front edge on the Plus side? Adjusting it up, is easier than lowering it.

That is the same reasoning I use to hang my seats ! It's easier to trim the bracket shorter, than make a new one that is longer.

​​​​​​​ If the seat is too low ? Add some padding.

 

[wingnut]

Brian's doing a nice job on his lightweight tripper,It will be interesting to see the set up he decides on. Mounting to the hull looks to be the lightest option. Someone posted pics on this site where they layered fiberglass strips on a form to get the shape they needed then glassed the brackets to the hull. That looks like the lightest option to me but there might be something better.

 

[gumpus]

Gumpus, I'm not seeing those seats on the Swift site, do you have a link? Ambitious price on that yoke, can't say I'd ever spend even 1/4 that amount on one.

Mark

Here you go. I hope the link works. Click on Additional Options and scroll down. I'm not sure I saw the two position pods on the price list but it would be easy to check with Swift. I'm not sure of the proper term but they use a little countoured metal plug in the pod that plugs into a metal hole in the seat to keep the seat in position and also allow you to turn the boat over and carry it without the seat falling out.

https://swiftcanoe.com/solo-canoe-options/

I wouldn't pay that much for a yoke either but I think it's cool that it exists. Just FYI they told me that the carbon fiber thwarts aren't as strong as their wood ones (I asked some questions when I was exploring options to get a little weight out of a couple of my heavier canoes).

 

[wingnut]

Muddyfeets slider set up for the center seat on his tandem could be a lightweight sliding seat option. Mounted to the hull on some glassed supports.
https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1123884&forumID=308&confID=1