Older canoe repair

[twmattox]

I have finally gotten all the pieces and have been sanding for a couple days. This is an older canoe of unknown make. It is incredibly light and I have a feeling may be kevlar. How do I tell?

I know it has a layer of fiberglass sheet all along the bottom (kind of like a skid plate) and it appears to have 2 layers of fiberglass on the bow and stern (like skid plates but all the way up to the tip). This almost looks like it was done during original construction. The bow and stern are incredibly smooth (not like raised skid plates). However, the glass sheet across the bottom of the hull does have some bumps and bubbles; though blends incredibly smoothly into the sides.

There isn't any gelcoat that I can tell; though there are 3 distinct "colors" that I can make out on the outside. There is a red spray paint layer, a white translucent coating on the bottom, and a greenish translucent color on the upper. By translucent, you can make out the weave of the fabric through it. Almost like the resin was tinted.

I am having a couple issues. With no real gelcoat, as I am sanding away the gouges and bumps and bubbles on the bottom of the hull, I am exposing the fiberglass mat. I assume I need to re-cover this with resin before I paint the canoe?

I know I won't ever get this thing incredibly smooth; but, I do want to get it as good as I can. I can keep sanding the high spots on the bottom of the hull;but, I am just going to be grinding into this fiberglass sheet. Should I, instead, build up the low spots and then sand down? And, if so, how? I would say a good 1/3 of the bottom has dips, gouges, bubbles that have been sanded away, etc. I will be filling a LOT of area...and I don't want to add more weight than I have to.

Thoughts???

 

[BWCA66]

Pictures?

 

[dougd]

Like BWCA said pics would help a lot with identifying the boat and the work you've done and are going to be doing. I'm a bit intrigued by what you have on your hands!

dougd

 

[twmattox]

[No message]

 

[twmattox]

Not sure what else I can say. I have some of the pits (with a key to shoe size). I show the fiberglass skids. They are smooth and not raised so I am assuming they are original to the canoe.

I got the canoe from a lady that found it behind her garage when she moved in but had PVC gunwales bolted through the hull and the seats were pine 2x12 that were screwed through the hull with drywall screws.

I am amazed by how light it is. It is 15-feet long and the stripped hull weighs around 30-35 pounds.

 

[Iskweo]

The skid plates look like add ons to me. A very unloved hull that could be brought to life with a little effort.Would look nice with a two tone paint job red/cream like Swift used to do with their boats.
Keep us posted, we love pictures.

Christy

 

[Guest]

Not sure what else I can say. I have some of the pits (with a key to shoe size). I show the fiberglass skids. They are smooth and not raised so I am assuming they are original to the canoe.

I got the canoe from a lady that found it behind her garage when she moved in but had PVC gunwales bolted through the hull and the seats were pine 2x12 that were screwed through the hull with drywall screws.

I am amazed by how light it is. It is 15-feet long and the stripped hull weighs around 30-35 pounds.

I don’t know what to say either. That may be the ugliest, most abused canoe I have ever seen. The glass skid plates are no work of art either, and certainly are not an OEM product. I’d guess it was once a skin-coated canoe,

But, if it really weights 30 – 35 lbs, or even 40-45 when “dressed”, there could be a gem hiding under all that crud.

I know you have already taken it apart and started sanding, but I’d be still be curious about the initial weight. Maybe put all of the removed parts and pieces back in the hull (lest the sanded dust) and weight it. Even a bathroom scale weight would give you an idea of the starting weight.

I have finally gotten all the pieces and have been sanding for a couple days. This is an older canoe of unknown make. It is incredibly light and I have a feeling may be kevlar. How do I tell?

There isn't any gelcoat that I can tell; though there are 3 distinct "colors" that I can make out on the outside. There is a red spray paint layer, a white translucent coating on the bottom, and a greenish translucent color on the upper. By translucent, you can make out the weave of the fabric through it. Almost like the resin was tinted.

How to tell if it is kevlar? The multiple layers of smutch makes it harder to tell. Kevlar fuzzes when sanded, glass not so much, and if you are sanded that far into either hull material it’s soon time to stop.

I’d guess that two of the three colors are something a previous owner painted on. The “white translucent” layer could be owner applied glass, maybe auto store E-glass and poly resin

If the translucent layer is nearest the fabric it could be a factory pigmented skin coat, which could be a hopeful sign of a quality build.

I am having a couple issues. With no real gelcoat, as I am sanding away the gouges and bumps and bubbles on the bottom of the hull, I am exposing the fiberglass mat. I assume I need to re-cover this with resin before I paint the canoe?

Hopefully not “fiberglass mat”. If the composition included chopper mat, or even old school glass woven roving, it would likely weight a lot more than 35lbs. There are a few cool old canoes built with woven roving. And a lot of older junk with that or chopper gun glass.

I know I won't ever get this thing incredibly smooth; but, I do want to get it as good as I can. I can keep sanding the high spots on the bottom of the hull;but, I am just going to be grinding into this fiberglass sheet. Should I, instead, build up the low spots and then sand down? And, if so, how? I would say a good 1/3 of the bottom has dips, gouges, bubbles that have been sanded away, etc. I will be filling a LOT of area...and I don't want to add more weight than I have to.

It will be a big job whatever you do, and I’d want to have a better idea of just what I have, what it was made of originally, and what it weighs before deciding how far to go. “As good as you can” depends on the functional value of the canoe to you, and the amount of work and materials you are willing to put in.

A higher end rebuild, if worth it, might involve sanding as best you can and as far as you dare, cutting some partials of S-glass or Dynel fabric for the weak spots and stems, epoxy and peel ply those partials in place and wet sand when cured.

Then roll on/tip out a layer (or two) of epoxy resin, cured and wet sanded in between and lay a couple paint coats over that. That could be a couple hundred in materials and a LOT of time & elbow grease before you even get to new gunwales, seats and thwarts.

I have no idea about the advisability, but I’d have been tempted to power wash the hull to see how much of the multi-layer applications might flake off before sanding.

Not to diss PVC gunwales and pine 2 x 12 seats. The first tandem I ever bought was a “Whitewater” brand. Made in that whitewater hot spot, Iowa. Broad of beam and flat bottomed, with a tall keel and hugely recurved stems; the raised keel ran not just along the bottom, but up the stems to the tip and down atop the length of long molded plastic deck plates. T’was an odd duck, molded of (very early) plastic, and sure as heck not a whitewater canoe.

It had for previous years been a west Texas canoe, stored outside. A UV degraded to heck $60 beater. I covered the nasty cracked molded gunwales with split lengths of old garden hose, filled with construction adhesive caulk and clamped in place. We paddled that thing for longer than I care to admit, gave it to friends who paddled it for a few years and it finally ended up with yet a third family.

I probably had $20 total in caulk, wood and hardware in that “refurbishment”. It was still ugly as heck, and when friends borrowed on a group trip it I managed to sneak a sign on the back of their truck (actually my old rusty truck they borrowed) reading “Poor White Trash Canoe Club”. Driving convoy along the inter-State they had no idea why passing cars were all pointing and laughing at them. They were newly visiting Aussies, and figured folks here in the US sure are friendly.

TW, if you get it skinned down and find a HIN (check the right stern just under the outwale, sometimes a pencil rub brings out the faintest of unreadable marks) I’d love to know what it is. First three letters will tell you the manufacturer; last few will tell you the year.

Keep us posted, we love pictures.

We do love pictures, especially along the way. And dimension specs; length, gunwale width, max beam, stem and center depths.

 

[twmattox]

I spent a lot more time sanding today...and I am thinking you guys are right about those skid plates...they are certainly added by a previous owner. I also think that the bottom of the hull was coated by a previous owner. The bottom seems like glass fabric and it seems like he used an extra thick layer of resin as the cloth seems to be floating in a 1/8" layer of resin. Some places near the top and some places near the bottom. It is almost like he tried to sheet the entire bottom and just did a really shoddy job. I have been able to grind most of the extra resin away and get rid of a lot of the unevenness in the bottom. I did power wash this before I began any work. It removed some of the crappy spray paint; but, the added glass (even after sanding) appears to be quite well bonded.

I already looked for an HIN. No indication of any numbers (the area I would have thought it would be had a lot of damage from the PVC pipe they tried to use as gunwales). The base material (looking at the inside) is cloth, not glass mat or roving. I have added some small bits of mat (I find it considerably easier to use to build up small layers in small areas). Aside from that, all the materials are fabric. There are areas where my sanding has penetrated down to the base fabric. It does fuzz up...interesting, the base hull may be kevlar...how nice. I will try to remember to get a weight on this tomorrow.

My plan is two layers of rolled on resin, a light sand, and 2 layers of oil based marine grade enamel. I do love the two-tone colors. White bottom and red top, for this canoe. I have a spare set of Old Town gunwales that I had bought for a different project that I will repurpose for this. I have some exrtra wood and will make a new set of seats and thwarts. I have been debating woven seats; but, think I am leaning toward wooden rail seats.


Side note. if you think this is the most ugly unloved hull...you should see my other canoe. I was given an old '70s model Bee Craft (talk about a HEAVY boat). It has the roving material covered in chopped glass and nice thick layers of gelcoat. The boat had a rough long life as a canoe for a rental company. Several bashes along the sides resulted in me having to remove approximately a football chunk on each side to get back to competent material (there were cracks through the hull that the rental company just covered with a glob of mat). The bow had apparently hit rocks hard several times and I had to cut away about a foot of the keel. I cut out all the bad and replaced it with several layers of fiberglass fabric. Like this one, didn't end up a show boat. But, it is a boat I am not embarrassed to take not he water and also not upset when it tags a rock or drags on the bottom (I do most of my canoeing in local rivers and creeks).

 

[pblanc]

The abrasion plates definitely look home-made, not that they are necessarily poorly done.

I can tell you what I would do with that boat, but it may be more trouble than you feel it is worth or add more weight than you wish.

I would first sand the exterior until every thing that is red and white is gone and until you can see fibers of the structural fabric everywhere. I would then mix up some fairing compound using something like West Systems 410 Microlight low density filler mixed with regular epoxy. Use this to fill in any low spots, then sand to fair. May require multiple applications in deeper depresions. You can get a very smooth external surface this way.

I would then apply a single layer of 4 ounce/square yard S fiberglass to the hull exterior. If the sides of the boat are not too bad, I might just cover the hull up to the waterline, otherwise I would apply a full blanket. Fill the weave with epoxy, then you can wet sand it smooth before washing and painting.

 

[twmattox]

I pulled out the scales today. After two coats of resin, the hull is just shy of 60# (apparently I’m not that good at guessing weight). It still feels considerably lighter than my in-laws Royalex canoe and my cousins aluminum canoe. It even feels lighter than the kayaks my friend and I took out yesterday.

 

[Guest]

Seats, thwarts, yoke, figure another 10 lbs +/-.

With new gunwales I’d install the seats and thwarts first, and then hang it from some support to find the balance point.

P2140012 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

 

[gumpus]

I pulled out the scales today. After two coats of resin, the hull is just shy of 60# (apparently I’m not that good at guessing weight). It still feels considerably lighter than my in-laws Royalex canoe and my cousins aluminum canoe. It even feels lighter than the kayaks my friend and I took out yesterday.

I admire your efforts and enthusiasm and I'm looking forward to seeing the final result. As far as ugliest most unloved boats you're not even competitive.

 

[Guest]

I have been debating woven seats; but, think I am leaning toward wooden rail seats.

The most comfortable wood seats I have every encountered were the ones Shenandoah Canoe installed in their old Warsaw Rockets, with a base curved sorta like an Adirondack chair.

Heavier than a cane or webbed seat, but simple to construct; two square laterals, two curved side pieces notched to fit the laterals and a half dozen slats. Butt comfy for both sitting and kneeling, and well drained.

Excuse the dust and superfluous straps, this is the only photo I have handy.

P5120035 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

 

[Iskweo]

That is actually a pretty slick idea.

 

[twmattox]

Seats, thwarts, yoke, figure another 10 lbs +/-.

With new gunwales I’d install the seats and thwarts first, and then hang it from some support to find the balance point.

Any easy advice for front/rear seat placement? I know there are all kinds of formulas etc. I am just trying to find a general idea for a "fits most cases" placement.

 

[Guest]

Any easy advice for front/rear seat placement? I know there are all kinds of formulas etc. I am just trying to find a general idea for a "fits most cases" placement.

Most often back where they originally were. If the gunwales are coming off (and going back on in the same spot*) I mark the locations on the hull, although with the previous PVC gunwale replacement who knows if they were in the original locations. If you still have those gunwales, or sufficient pieces of them, you could clamp them to the hull, mark the seat locations, lay a couple board across and see how it looks.

*I tend to move the seat(s) in a lot of canoes in any case. In a solo canoe I like my seat further back than most factory locations. In some tandems the stern seat is pinched way the heck back in the stem, sometimes uncomfortably tight for my fat arse. Some folks I know who paddle bow backwards in a tandem have moved the bow seat a little closer to center, and one habitual kneeler has his seat 20” aft of center.

Of course there is always the possibility of “soloizing” the canoe when you do a rebuild, installing a single back-of-center seat at your preferred location for sitting or kneeling or paddling style. I know where I like my solo seats, 10 or 11 inches back of center boat for seated paddling in most cases.

If you consistently paddle tandem with the same partner and your body weights are vastly different that trim issue can be lessened with more custom seat placement.

If there is a rule of tandem seat placement it would be different in different canoes; flatwater tandems versus WW tandems, long vs short hulls, symmetrical hull or Swede form, maybe even rocker and rocker symmetry. And even then, it’s the designer’s “best guess” at paddler’s weights, preferences and applications.

 

[twmattox]

Most often back where they originally were. If the gunwales are coming off (and going back on in the same spot*) I mark the locations on the hull, although with the previous PVC gunwale replacement who knows if they were in the original locations. If you still have those gunwales, or sufficient pieces of them, you could clamp them to the hull, mark the seat locations, lay a couple board across and see how it looks.

I would normally agree; but, in this case, the seats were 2x12 boards that were bolted through the hull right under the PVC pipe gunwales. I am fairly certain they were not the original locations. Both seats were centered between the end and center of each side...

 

[gumpus]

Any easy advice for front/rear seat placement? I know there are all kinds of formulas etc. I am just trying to find a general idea for a "fits most cases" placement.

One approach you can use is to just scale the distances using a plan view of a similar canoe. Your boat looks to be symmetric. What is the overall length?

https://www.swiftcanoe.com/prospector-16

For example the Swift Prospector is 16 feet long, that's 172 inches. If I blow the image up on my iPad it's 184 mm long. So the scale is 172/184 inches per millimeter. Then if I measure the distance from the center of boat to the front edge of the front seat (in mm) and from center of boat to front edge of rear seat (in mm). Then multiply each number by 172/184. I get 36.5 inches from center of boat to leading edge of front seat and 40 inches from center of boat to leading edge of rear seat. Make sense?

 

[twmattox]

Overall length is 15 foot.

 

[gumpus]

Overall length is 15 foot.

OK. I used the 15 foot Swift Prospector shown and this time I measured from the center of the boat to the front seat hole. Your front hole for your front seat should be about 31.5 inches ahead of the center of the canoe, measured along the canoe centerline. The front hole for your rear seat should be about 35.75 inches behind the center of the canoe, also measured along the centerline of the canoe. Clear? Maybe you could lay some boards across the boat to make sure the seat placement looks like the boat in the pic.

https://www.swiftcanoe.com/prospector-15

PS, your boat will look better in green than red unless you're Canadian.