I’m interested in hearing from folks that have first hand experience with the hull materials Innegra and Aramid. How well does it hold up being dragged on rocks? Impact strength? Any other comments, pro or con would be helpful. Thanks.
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Innegra & Aramid
- Thread starter CathyF
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Hmmm, I have a few canoes with Aramid(kevlar) hull, and they are pretty darn good, but not all kevlar hull are built the same way, and most have at least a layer of S-glass on the outside covering the Kevlar! I paddle only composite canoes, and all of them in ww situations up to class III III+ and over the years I find they last better then the Royalex equivalent. But again the boat I paddle are design for river expeditions, where dragging and hiding rocks are part of the game!
The boats I know will sustain some abuse in those conditions are Hellman canoes in there Duralight or Duratuff layup, Composite Creations in his expedition layup, Clipper in there Duraflex layup!!
These are the brand that I have first hand experience with on long trips and day trip ww river running! Millbrook boats have a great layup to, I have two of his ww canoes and they are great, So I assume that John's other models would be just as good like the Coho and the AC/DC...
The boats I know will sustain some abuse in those conditions are Hellman canoes in there Duralight or Duratuff layup, Composite Creations in his expedition layup, Clipper in there Duraflex layup!!
These are the brand that I have first hand experience with on long trips and day trip ww river running! Millbrook boats have a great layup to, I have two of his ww canoes and they are great, So I assume that John's other models would be just as good like the Coho and the AC/DC...
Pretty much we do no willful dragging. But dragging does happen. The materials in combination are a tough pair and quite rugged. Often combined with partials of fiber glass.
Its also about the layup schedule. Some boats are meant for flatwater racing and have light layups and are more prone to rock damage. Some boats are just plain flimsy Kevlar and with minimal full layers and not much partials.
Others like my river runner the Colden DragonFly( kevlar, carbon and s glass) have 38 pieces of fabric thoughtfully placed.. Full blankets, partial footballs and good stem reinforcement. Before buying a boat ask about the layup schedule. The DragonFly was designed as a wildwater downriver racer.
You might check out Nortstar canoes at Contocook Canoe Co.
Its also about the layup schedule. Some boats are meant for flatwater racing and have light layups and are more prone to rock damage. Some boats are just plain flimsy Kevlar and with minimal full layers and not much partials.
Others like my river runner the Colden DragonFly( kevlar, carbon and s glass) have 38 pieces of fabric thoughtfully placed.. Full blankets, partial footballs and good stem reinforcement. Before buying a boat ask about the layup schedule. The DragonFly was designed as a wildwater downriver racer.
You might check out Nortstar canoes at Contocook Canoe Co.
I have lots of composite boats with aramid (Kevlar), fiberglass and carbon but none with Innegra. I treat them all the same depending on whether the layup is designed for flat water or whitewater, and would do so if they had Innegra in them.
I would never drag any flat water composite layup over rocks unless absolutely necessary. I wetfoot in and out of the boat. That means I step into and out of the boat while it is in a few inches of water, never grinding the canoe up onto the shore (unless necessary). Such hulls are carried through the air on shoulder, arm, head or canoe cart. Flat water composite layups can handle modest rock impacts on the river, but how much so depends on the particular layup -- the number of layers, partials, reinforcements, the thickness of the cloths, and the type of resin used.
Whitewater composite layups have been used for more than half a century by whitewater boaters. They are constructed with heavier and more durable layups of cloths and more layers. Because of this, they can handle much greater rock impacts on the river. Still, I wouldn't drag them over rocks unless absolutely necessary.
Treat your composite flat water hull well and it will last a lifetime and still look decent. A well-used composite whitewater hull can last for decades but will probably be quite scratched, gouged and banged up.
As to Innegra, I'm sure there are builders here who have used it. As far as I know, it has to be co-woven with another fabric such as basalt or carbon. Personally, I'm not convinced it's anything much more than hype for marketing reasons, to have "something new". Wenonah seems to have rejected it for their flat water canoes as has Millbrook for their whitewater canoes. S glass, Kevlar and carbon have been used for decades to produce the top hulls for all paddling in all waters.
I would never drag any flat water composite layup over rocks unless absolutely necessary. I wetfoot in and out of the boat. That means I step into and out of the boat while it is in a few inches of water, never grinding the canoe up onto the shore (unless necessary). Such hulls are carried through the air on shoulder, arm, head or canoe cart. Flat water composite layups can handle modest rock impacts on the river, but how much so depends on the particular layup -- the number of layers, partials, reinforcements, the thickness of the cloths, and the type of resin used.
Whitewater composite layups have been used for more than half a century by whitewater boaters. They are constructed with heavier and more durable layups of cloths and more layers. Because of this, they can handle much greater rock impacts on the river. Still, I wouldn't drag them over rocks unless absolutely necessary.
Treat your composite flat water hull well and it will last a lifetime and still look decent. A well-used composite whitewater hull can last for decades but will probably be quite scratched, gouged and banged up.
As to Innegra, I'm sure there are builders here who have used it. As far as I know, it has to be co-woven with another fabric such as basalt or carbon. Personally, I'm not convinced it's anything much more than hype for marketing reasons, to have "something new". Wenonah seems to have rejected it for their flat water canoes as has Millbrook for their whitewater canoes. S glass, Kevlar and carbon have been used for decades to produce the top hulls for all paddling in all waters.
I did stop by Contoocook Canoe Co recently and was introduced to the new Northwind solo made of carbon, Innegra & Aramid. I have a slightly older Northwind solo and am considering selling it so I can get the Northstar Trillium - a boat better suited for a wee one as myself. I was told that with the new hulls of carbon, Innegra and Aramid, these boats can be “dragged across rocks without damage.” Really? Seems like a pretty bold claim by a retailer. I’m only interested in doing, at most, class II rapids, and week long or so solo trips. But, I want a boat I can carry and beat on a bit without going to pieces. What do you think about the claim that it can be “dragged across rocks without damage.” ?
BS.. The Trillium is light enough so that you can pick it up. I have had a RapidFIre for years and yep it has seen its share of rocks that came out of nowhere and also oyster bars that are razor sharp that can cut Royalex.
The boat is 14 years old and the bottom though scuffed ( so that's where I call BS as it is damage per se) is intact.. But it has gel coat which I always insist on for abrasion protection. I do not know if Northstars have that option. They seem to prefer a vinylester skin coat .They poo poo gel coat as apt to splinter and crack.. I have had gel coated boats since 1993 and found that if gel spiders there is often underlying fabric damage or water has been allowed to get between the gel and the fabric as in a crack or sizeable hole. I have a Wenonah skin coat and a Souris River epoxy coat and those show wear pretty fast.. But are easy to touch up You do have to get after that if abrasion happens on a skin coat as if kevlar is immediately beneath the outer layer it fuzzzes badly.
But dragged across rocks is not synonymous with hitting a rock. Colden Hemlock and Swift all make such carbon/kevlar hybrids as well as Savage River
The Savage River Illusion would probably be a great fit for you. Marc is about 130 lbs soaking wet.
You would have to ask Savage River about all their layup combos..
Yellowcanoe... thanks for the suggestions and opinions. I’m looking at the Northstar Trillium as a possible solo tripping boat and, compared to your your company suggestions, I am assured that I’m in the ballpark for price, material and size. I”m a bit under 115 lbs soaking wet. I’m sure a different boat would feel better. Btw, the Northstar solo does have a gel coat - so I really appreciated hearing your experience with that material, as well. Thanks, again!
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First let me say I think you should absolutely swap your NW Solo for a Trillium. I sold my NW Solo and recently test paddled a Trillium and it is an awesome boat that turns way better than the NW Solo, cruises more effortlessly and feels more responsive and playful all the time. Cool boat for sure. The Firebird is also red hot and broadly capable and would fit you like a glove but the Trillium seems like the right choice for you.
If if you look at the description of the lay-ups on the Northstar site you'll see that even their white/gold "economy" lay-up has some Innegra. I think the reason the IXP qualifies as their expedition lay-up is because it has 11 frickin layers of it. 11 layers of Kevlar (aramid) would also make for a darn tough boat.
Bell (predecessor of Northstar) used to rate their black/gold lay-up as appropriate for mild whitewater. I think the Northstar BlackLite should be just fine for your planned use...unless you want as much peace of mind as you can get and don't mind a 39 pound IXP boat. I have one black/gold Bell with a thick gelcoat and another without and would not hesitate to use either one for the conditions you describe. I also have one BlackLite Nothstar but have not banged it around much.
Trillium is pretty shallow so unless you plan to use float bags or get a spray skirt you'd probably sink the boat before getting it into big enough whitewater to hurt it.
Pics show my 20 year old Bell Merlin II with all bottom scratches from rocks. Last year I casually drove it hard into a submerged concrete barrier that I assumed was a floating stick (I was daydreaming). That popped out a bb size piece of gelcoat but didn't touch the fabric and it was easy to repair.
I agree with the suggestion to see if you could order a BlackLite boat with gelcoat since the gelcoat can absorb a lot of abrasion but I think you'll also be fine without it.
If if you look at the description of the lay-ups on the Northstar site you'll see that even their white/gold "economy" lay-up has some Innegra. I think the reason the IXP qualifies as their expedition lay-up is because it has 11 frickin layers of it. 11 layers of Kevlar (aramid) would also make for a darn tough boat.
Bell (predecessor of Northstar) used to rate their black/gold lay-up as appropriate for mild whitewater. I think the Northstar BlackLite should be just fine for your planned use...unless you want as much peace of mind as you can get and don't mind a 39 pound IXP boat. I have one black/gold Bell with a thick gelcoat and another without and would not hesitate to use either one for the conditions you describe. I also have one BlackLite Nothstar but have not banged it around much.
Trillium is pretty shallow so unless you plan to use float bags or get a spray skirt you'd probably sink the boat before getting it into big enough whitewater to hurt it.
Pics show my 20 year old Bell Merlin II with all bottom scratches from rocks. Last year I casually drove it hard into a submerged concrete barrier that I assumed was a floating stick (I was daydreaming). That popped out a bb size piece of gelcoat but didn't touch the fabric and it was easy to repair.
I agree with the suggestion to see if you could order a BlackLite boat with gelcoat since the gelcoat can absorb a lot of abrasion but I think you'll also be fine without it.
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Cathy,
A close friend purchased a Kevlar (white Gold) Trillium this year. It is an incredible canoe, and I don't think you could go wrong with it. I can't speak for white water, but we did take the Trillium on a week long trip to Killarney park, and experienced severe winds and waves. The trillium handled both without any problems. I was envious of the light weight on the portages. As for dragging over rocks, I suggest purchasing your next canoe from someone knowledgeable. I know people that drag their polyproplyne kayaks over cement roads. The composite canoes will be destroyed within a season.
I am seriousely thinking of selling my Magic to get a Trillium. The canoe is that good.
Erik
A close friend purchased a Kevlar (white Gold) Trillium this year. It is an incredible canoe, and I don't think you could go wrong with it. I can't speak for white water, but we did take the Trillium on a week long trip to Killarney park, and experienced severe winds and waves. The trillium handled both without any problems. I was envious of the light weight on the portages. As for dragging over rocks, I suggest purchasing your next canoe from someone knowledgeable. I know people that drag their polyproplyne kayaks over cement roads. The composite canoes will be destroyed within a season.
I am seriousely thinking of selling my Magic to get a Trillium. The canoe is that good.
Erik
Actually Erik composites can be repaired . They are not destroyed.. However polypro kayaks do get worn down and are destroyed as you cannot re weld layers of poly pro back. Thats one reason people who own kayaks in Maine with its high tides and rocky coast prefer composites.
Cement roads? That has been a long time. When I was a kid there were concrete roads that had joints. ker bump ker bump.. Haven't seen one in ages.
Cement roads? That has been a long time. When I was a kid there were concrete roads that had joints. ker bump ker bump.. Haven't seen one in ages.
Many thanks for all of the advice! Anyone in the market for a Northstar solo (Northwind)?
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Yellowcanoe is right, composite boats, good ones, can be repaired pretty much indefinitely!! Plastic of any kind, even the best of the best can't. Plus spastic is slow, heavy, and deform easily(oil canning)
I'm guessing the claims of dragging it over rocks come from Bear Paulsons recent trips and subsequent Youtube video of him not babying the Northstar hull and it showing little damage.
I've dragged my cedar strip hulls over plenty of rocks. It's not a big deal. Maybe not something you want to do all day every day but they don't need to be babied.
Alan
I've dragged my cedar strip hulls over plenty of rocks. It's not a big deal. Maybe not something you want to do all day every day but they don't need to be babied.
Alan
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Even Northstar only claims "good" abrasion resistance for IXP. The appeal seems to be exceptional impact resistance.
It's a bit painful to see folks debating the answer to such an unclear question. What is meant by dragging over rocks? What is meant by no damage?
Class 2 is well defined and if you want a Trillium that you can abuse a bit you won't go wrong with BlackLite. The white/gold may well be fine, you don't want the StarLite and I'm not sure they even offer them in IXP.
It's a bit painful to see folks debating the answer to such an unclear question. What is meant by dragging over rocks? What is meant by no damage?
Class 2 is well defined and if you want a Trillium that you can abuse a bit you won't go wrong with BlackLite. The white/gold may well be fine, you don't want the StarLite and I'm not sure they even offer them in IXP.
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Well I have a Composite creation Expedition that I paddle like I stole it and have been doing so for well over 100 days of river running up to class 3 a lot of the time on shallow rocky rivers, did a 17 day grind down the Wind river up here and many many many days of going up and down shallow creeks looking for moose and I have to say it is in better shape than that IXP, mine is a 16 foot tandem weight in at fifty five pounds. Never seen cloth yet!!
Just got off the San Juan river in Utah. Eight days from Montezuma Creek to Clay Hills Crossing; using five IXP B17 canoes from Northstar Canoes. Running Class 1 to Class 3 Rapids, Pinning one canoe for a solid 20 minutes before the 3 thwarts busted and the canoe became freed. In a Class3 rapid one canoe capsized and hit a rock or two while filled, It hit hard enough that the seat drop tweaked the aluminum gunnel
The pinned canoe the resin lifted to create an edge that was sharp to the touch but did not leak. We covered it with duct tape to prevent cuts. Replaced one thwart with a stick as it disappeared, another was lashed back in, the middle thwart/ yoke. The aluminum Gunnels were bent and deformed where it had been twisted up where it had been pinned, but it paddled fine for the next 3 days with all the load it had before the pinning. When the last thwart snapped it deformed the canoe enough that it was twisted from the rocks that had been keeping it pinned midstream.
Were there scratches in the hulls - Yes; but less than I was expecting from hearing some of the impacts and the dragging off stuff. I am confident of the layup, to be able to handle any screw up I may do. I have some pictures of the trip but none of the pinning as I was focused on getting people and canoe out safely.
The pinned canoe the resin lifted to create an edge that was sharp to the touch but did not leak. We covered it with duct tape to prevent cuts. Replaced one thwart with a stick as it disappeared, another was lashed back in, the middle thwart/ yoke. The aluminum Gunnels were bent and deformed where it had been twisted up where it had been pinned, but it paddled fine for the next 3 days with all the load it had before the pinning. When the last thwart snapped it deformed the canoe enough that it was twisted from the rocks that had been keeping it pinned midstream.
Were there scratches in the hulls - Yes; but less than I was expecting from hearing some of the impacts and the dragging off stuff. I am confident of the layup, to be able to handle any screw up I may do. I have some pictures of the trip but none of the pinning as I was focused on getting people and canoe out safely.
And with that Dan you are required to write a trip report! The suspense of finishing the trip with a z shaped canoe is killing me.
I have done that with a Merlin II that went over a waterfall sans me.
I have done that with a Merlin II that went over a waterfall sans me.
Yellowcanoe- I speak Minnesotian - English is a second language for me. It may be awhile as life and 2000+ pictures are a bit too much to wade through quickly. There are a few pictures on the Cooke Custom Sewing Facebook page- I can't seem to figure out how to get them to appear on this site. I do have a picture of the repaired canoe.
A good story is worth the wait.. We have some non FB members here.. You have to direct upload them from your camera though FB shrinks them so much that if you merely save the FB pics to a separate folder you can upload them here. Photo image size direct upload here is sometimes an issue with the pixel sizes that modern cameras can produce. This site is never happy with my 6000x4000 pixel pics so I have to resize or grab off FB if I have posted there
Think of FB as Irfanview.
Dan Cooke, I am interested in the any before and after photos of the damaged canoe, as well as, an explanation of how it was repaired.
Gumpus, I am only assuming that the claim “dragging over rocks” meant pulling a loaded canoe through a shallow patch of river without enough water to float or line - not literally dragging it over dry bedrock. I also won’t be doing class III rapids at this point in my life. With all of that said, I have pinned a canoe, hit a rock or two and had to drag my Old Town Royalex Penobscot over the rocks in a river that had a stretch of water too shallow to float or line. I have found all of this discussion helpful. I’m fairly unknowledgeable about the materials discussed and am a bit overwhelmed at the thought of repairing it. But, after reading folks experience, it all sounds doable. I am interested in the BlackLite. I feel like it would be able to handle what I described above, including beaver dams and the such. I just have to commit to good care of the hull.
Thank you all again for your comments!
Gumpus, I am only assuming that the claim “dragging over rocks” meant pulling a loaded canoe through a shallow patch of river without enough water to float or line - not literally dragging it over dry bedrock. I also won’t be doing class III rapids at this point in my life. With all of that said, I have pinned a canoe, hit a rock or two and had to drag my Old Town Royalex Penobscot over the rocks in a river that had a stretch of water too shallow to float or line. I have found all of this discussion helpful. I’m fairly unknowledgeable about the materials discussed and am a bit overwhelmed at the thought of repairing it. But, after reading folks experience, it all sounds doable. I am interested in the BlackLite. I feel like it would be able to handle what I described above, including beaver dams and the such. I just have to commit to good care of the hull.
Thank you all again for your comments!
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