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Freestyle thread

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The OP of the freestyle paddling thread has informed me that he will no longer be posting here.

Since the thread was not working correctly, it has been deleted. I spoke with the webmaster of this site about the problem the freestyle thread had and it looked like it was not going to be an easy fix and would take some time. Since the thread was an obvious self promotion of freestyle and the freestyle website, I felt I have better things to spend the sites funds on. BTW, the OP has already had problems posting links over at P.Nett so I feel somewhat vindicated.


Canoetripping is a tripping site first and until there is an unlimited budget, tripping and tripping related issues come first. Freestyle paddling makes you a better paddler, but it has little to do with tripping.


If your interests sway more towards freestyle, please go to P.Nett and enjoy.. If you like canoe tripping please consider this staying here and supporting the site with your active participation.
 
Hi Robin, Good call and done like a gentleman. I was a little put off by the guy showing up out of no where like he's bringing religion to the primitives and announcing he's going to be doing this and that. But then it could be I'm just getting cranky in my old age.

Best Wishes, Rob
 
Sorry but I thought this site was supposed to be friendly. Marc is not a self aggrandizing person but wanted to put forth something people might be interested in. We all lose a great deal of money "self promoting that cause". Marc and Robyn are long times friends of mine. Its not a religiiion.

Look at your canoe history. FreeStyle came out of canoe tripping. Its meant for touring hulls.

Of course like most of my FreeStyle friends we love tripping. And we do use the techniques for making tripping easier.

I am so disappointed in the bashing. Marc had trouble with https.. over there. A participant from here straightened it out and he was thankful.

I won't be supporting nor participating in this site any longer. Best to all of you and stay well.

Good bye.
 
What is the problem here?

I consider myself a wilderness tripper. I do it by myself in a dedicated solo canoe. I could say that I am self-taught, as I have not taken formal classes or participated in symposia, I have however, had opportunity to paddle behind some very talented paddlers including the OP of the original functional freestyle thread. I learn best by observing, and witnessing the value of an offside wedge or static pitch (my own nomenclature) has helped me to be a better tripper. If freestyle techniques make you a better paddler how can that have little to do with tripping? I enjoy and support this forum but perhaps I need clarification on what canoe tripping is.
 
I notified Robin when I repeatedly tried and failed to access page 2 of the freestyle thread. I thought there might've been a glitch in the site somewhere. I was really wanting to view and learn some strokes. I did finally view the axel videos. I'll never remember the names for most strokes besides draw and pry, but learning them and relearning them is helpful. We apply these in tight creeks and river bends, and awkward shoreline takeouts. I currently pour over my books on paddle strokes etc every spring, and yes, I go to youtube as well. I thought these how to videos by Marc might be a helpful addition here. I'm not much interested in canoe ballet, but seeing freestyle strokes demonstrated in creeking did interest me. I'm sorry funds don't permit bailing out that thread, but I understand the need for priorities in site maintenance. I'm sitting on my fence again, hoping cooler heads prevail, and softer words get spoken.
 
This is so confusing on so many different levels.

1. If there's a problem viewing threads with embedded videos, that's a serious problem that will affect ALL videos on ALL subjects, not just so-called Freestyle videos. Many of us spend hours creating videos to post on this site, or trying to do so, simply for the education or entertainment of perhaps a small handful of interested members. What problem could be more important to resolve?

2. We have sub-forums for "Events", for "Media Room - Skill and technique videos", and for "Techniques" -- all of which would seem to be applicable to Marc Ornstein's thread. Maybe it was just in the wrong sub-forum.

3. Every time any one of us travels from point A to B in a canoe, we are "canoe tripping". The trip may be short or long. It may go here, or there, or nowhere in particular. Every one of these trips with a single blade depends on single blade paddling technique, which has various levels of sophistication.

4. No one needs to pick up their marbles and go home -- or tell someone else to do so. Are we petulant children.

5. If there is a technical problem with embedding and viewing videos, it likely has been recently induced by some other tinkering with the software. I say that because we have been embedding videos since the beginning of this forum. I do it all the time.

6. Is there really a technical problem, or is it simply a lack of understanding of the embedding technique. I posted a test in another thread. Can you folks view that thread and the problem videos?
 
I believe the video problem is related to the http vs https and the subsequent SSL certificate.

Drop the s from the url and it should post as expected. I'm familiar with several fora that don't support https SSL tech.

And I agree... this whole scenario could have been handled much better. We are a small community as it is. Seems silly to fragment and separate it further.
 
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I believe the video problem is related to the http vs https and the subsequent SSL certificate.

In my test thread, I embedded the two videos that have generated the supposed "problem" using the vBulletin Video tag and the https address. I can see the test thread and both videos without logging out. Apparently, so can Alan Gage. Therefore, I question whether there is really a technical problem at all, which began all this piffle.
 
I came to this site to follow the Freestyle conversation. I don't understand how improving canoe paddling technique doesn't fit within the mission of a canoe tripping site, especially since it has a section called "Technique". In general, the people who teach FS are among the most generous and decent people I have met in the canoeing committee. I'm not a fan of the music thing, but they have lots to share to make anyone a better paddler. You have to be crazy chasing them away!
 
I came to this site to follow the Freestyle conversation. I don't understand how improving canoe paddling technique doesn't fit within the mission of a canoe tripping site, especially since it has a section called "Technique". In general, the people who teach FS are among the most generous and decent people I have met in the canoeing committee. I'm not a fan of the music thing, but they have lots to share to make anyone a better paddler. You have to be crazy chasing them away!

Welcome to the forum - hope you decide to stay. It really is a good forum with some very nice folks.

I agree with you regarding the FS thing but it seems that horse has left that barn at this point. The discussion is active over at paddling.net and enjoying a good degree of interaction if you're interested in following it.
 
Hi Colden Ager, I'm glad that you find the freestyle folks congenial, I'll bet I'd find most of them likeable as well. But don't be worried, the freestyle site is still up the last time I checked. The U-Tube videos are still there.

I think if I were interested in freestyle paddling then it might make the most sense to go to where that was the primary interest.

I do think it remarkable that with your first post you are trying to tell the site how it ought to be run.

Rob
 
really?
That was one of the most popular threads going (judging by the view count). I guess decorating a wooden box, or refurbishing an axe is more relevant to canoe tripping than efficient paddling is…? This is extremely subjective, and obviously personal to some here…that's too bad.
 
Well Shanks, you make some valuable points: I'd guess that very few here use boxes while camping, I've often wondered if I should consider something else. And about the axes, I don't know how many use them but surely even fewer will ever need to fix one up. Very probably my efforts were silly.

I would suggest that if a person read and mastered the strokes given in Bill Mason's books that would really cover what a person needed to paddle his canoe under any conditions he might find. To my mind what he teaches is what we need to know to be efficient paddlers. And it sure helps to be efficient. Now I don't know, but I'd bet that very few of us could demonstrate all the strokes that Mason teaches, and those are the meat and potatoes of paddling. I don't know how you'd describe the techniques of freestyle, maybe some kind of foo-foo whip cream desert. Not really bad for you if you don't eat too much.

I watched the video of the freestyle folks and noticed that the canoes were empty and often times were tipped to achieve a particular maneuver. Now personally (what else have I got to work with?) when I'm out even for just a day, I have a dog and a day pack for emergencies and a five gallon container of water to bring the bow down. Tip the canoe? Not on purpose anyway. Sit in the middle? Not in my prospector which is designed to carry loads (like when you're camping).

I do wish we had the original post to re-read so I could check my memory of it but we don't. What impressed me at the time was that here was this FNG who had this program all set where he was going to give us the WORD. Yep, you're right, personally that got my hackles up. I didn't say anything at that time but when Robin decided to scrap the thread, I decided to back him in what might prove an unpopular decision. I did and it was.

So, there it is, a difference of opinions, make of it what you will.

Rob
 
I think if I were interested in freestyle paddling then it might make the most sense to go to where that was the primary interest
Rob

Rob, you point out a good general principle. However, with respect, I think you and others are perhaps applying that general principle inaccurately in the case of so-called freestyle canoeing.

Namely, there is no USA paddling discussion board where freestyle flatwater canoeing is the primary interest. Marc Ornstein probably felt that this board would be best candidate site of all that are available.

Allow me to explain.

"Freestyle" (a term I don't personally like) is nothing more than a structured curriculum for teaching advanced flatwater maneuvers with single blades in open canoes, primarily a suite of turning and sideslipping maneuvers. Thus, freestyle techniques are not primarily of interest to whitewater canoeists or to double blade paddlers in decked boats such as kayaks.

The Pnet forum is a combination of mostly of kayakers, fewer canoeists and some SUPers, with a combination of flatwater, whitewater and ocean paddlers. The CBoats forum is open canoe but whitewater only. The MYCCR forum is eclectic but mainly focused on Canada.

So, what U.S. internet paddling forum is primarily focused on flatwater paddling with single blades in open canoes? THIS ONE!

Marc Ornstein is the former many-time USA national interpretive freestyle champion and a certified ACA instructor. He's also a canoe tripper, open canoe builder and single blade paddle maker. His retirement interest is in providing instruction and information about improving single blade flatwater paddling technique in open canoes. He and the other ACA freestyle instructors don't make any significant profits, if any at all. They mainly do it for the love of the dying art of single blade open canoeing. Now they've evidently produced some videos, which they wanted to use as vehicles for discussion.

I think this is a good forum for that kind of subject matter. It's nothing more than the very same subject matter that Bill Mason covered in his classic, 40-year old solo canoe instruction videos -- frequently posted on this forum and its predecessor -- except Mason used a little different terminology for some strokes and he executed them in a tandem hull instead of a dedicated solo hull.

My opinion -- and that's all it is -- is that anything about paddling an open canoe should be welcome on this site. That everyone should come back. And that the "video posting problem", if there is one, should be solved, because that can affect videos on all subjects of interest.
 
My comments where not a negative towards any other threads...I have enjoyed both threads that I mentioned. Actually, Oldie, I very much look forward to your posts. You have a great sense of humor, and have wonderful things to share.
 
If I can voice an opinion as my first substantive post here…

I was playing basketball Saturday morning (please bear with me for a moment, I know this is a canoe tripping website) when I got an elbow in the eye. It stopped the game for a few minutes and I’m going to have a good shiner for the next week or two. From my point of view, it was an unnecessarily rough play. From his point of view he probably thinks I fouled his elbow with my face. But you can be sure we’ll both be out on the court again next week, because I like the guy and I like the sport. The nucleus of this B’ball group has been playing together for almost 30 years. We know each other and we know nobody is going to deliberately try to hurt anyone. Sometimes injuries happen. But it would take a lot more than one elbow in the eye to outweigh all of the shared experiences and the rewards we get from playing a sport we enjoy.

I think of this canoeing website the same way – people demonstrating a lot of skills and knowledge about a sport we all enjoy. This is my first post, but I’ve logged on daily for almost a year (and I’ve contributed to both of Robin’s fund drives) because no matter how often I visit there’s always something new, informative and interesting to read. I apologize for not posting before this, but to be honest I don’t feel I have the canoeing skills that many of you have. But when I logged on Saturday morning -- on the same day I got my bruised eye -- and read about the bruised feelings regarding the freestyling posts, I thought I finally had something to add to the conversation.

It seems totally logical to me that Marc would want to post here about freestyle canoeing. Sure freestyling has its own website, but how else are they going to spread their news to new readers and paddlers. I, for one, was interested to read about next year’s event in the Jersey Pine Barrens. I’ve already marked my calendar and hope to make it there.

And it makes equal sense to me that, when a perceived glitch developed with the video, Robin ruled that he could not justify the cost for a repair that only affected one post. Especially when that poster could easily solve the problem by putting a teaser on canoetripping to bring interested readers to the videos on his own freestyling website.

I don’t know what, if anything, was said or done behind the scenes. But based on what happened in public, it’s hard to understand the dramatic actions that resulted. We all know it’s far easier to commit a foul on a website than it is on a basketball court. But in both cases, the important thing is to look at the intent. And on a website where everyone shares a love of paddling, it’s hard to imagine that any harm was intended. As was said earlier by Odyssey, I hope cooler heads prevail and softer words get spoken.
 
Robin, Could you make any further comments on this? Ultimately, you are the one that make the final decision on matters like this.
I hate to see people leave this site for whatever reason. Maybe further clarification is needed from you about what is appropriate for the benefit of all of us.
We have all sorts of areas available to post various topics that should all be based around "A place for Open Canoes" Can we come to some sort of consensus?
 
And it makes equal sense to me that, when a perceived glitch developed with the video, Robin ruled that he could not justify the cost for a repair that only affected one post. Especially when that poster could easily solve the problem by putting a teaser on canoetripping to bring interested readers to the videos on his own freestyling website.

That's generally considered bad form on internet forums and the fact that he supplied links to the freestylecanoeing.com website may be the reason for some of the ruffled feathers. It's not polite to show up on a forum just to post a teaser with links to try and lure people away to visit somewhere else. But in this case, as far as I can see, there's really nothing to be seen at freestylecanoeing.com other than a list of upcoming events, maybe a newsletter, and a Facebook feed. No discussion forum or anything else that would take away visitors from this site. Better to put all the content in the forum you're posting in, which is what Marc did.

My initial thoughts were the same as Glenn's. If there's a technical issue in general with embedding videos it should be sorted out so that it doesn't affect other posters as well (which I believe it already has). Not saying it needed to be done immediately but simply removing whatever embedded videos were causing the issue and replacing them with youtube links would have temporarily solved the issue.

Alan
 
I think some of you guys up north must get cranky when it's cold and you can't go paddling. Come on down to Florida and I'll even buy you a beer. I appreciated the freestyle thread because I need all the help I can get because I'm new to single blading and there is no where near the information on proper efficient techniques as there is about kayaking. I know because I bought just about all the DVD's available (about 30+ or so) on kayaking when I first starting paddling. I passed the kayaking DVD's and my NDK Romany on to my best friend's grand daughters to get them into paddling.The only DVD I have on canoeing is Becky Mason's newest one. I'm new so I don't have a say but I have started to frequent PNet more.
 
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