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(Very) Big Canoes

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south of Winnipeg
Paddle Manitoba has recently been given a 34 ft Northwoods Canoe. It needs a couple of the seats replacing but the big thing is that it needs more flotation. They are a pig to bale and anything that can be done to make it float higher could be a real life saver. Has anyone got any experience of adding flotation to one of these? It has been suggested we laminate some foam blocks, but I have been thinking about using dinghy buoyancy bags. Are these even sold in North America? They are made in a whole variety of sizes for different styles of sailing craft and we used them on our sailing canoes back in the UK to add side buoyancy.

Also I need a couple of really long trad paddles, about 72" or more. Any suggestions apart from getting Doug Ingram to make some?
 
I'd go with Doug for the padres.... I would make you some, but then it wouldn't be cheeper, and you would have to pay shipping.... As for flotation, I would get the bulk head fill with foam blocks. Then you could run foam strips 3 inches thick X 5 inches wide, along the sides under the gunnels, that would help the boat float but also stabilize it when full of water. Each seat get a slab of 4to 6" of foam on the underside!!
 
This is a 34 ft carbon boat that I first paddled during the first Yukon 1000 mile race in 2009. It is known as the "Texan", because that is where it was manufactured, then brought to Whitehorse for the races, and that is where it lives now. It is foam core, graphite fabric layup inside and out, and amazingly light for its size. No need for floatation. Originally outfitted for a crew of 10-12 with seats on wheels that easily slide side-to-side to the gunwales for "huts". We re-outfitted it for our crew that year of 7 (and won the race). I most comfortably use a 52 inch carbon bent shaft in the bow; the stern paddler sits high on the deck and uses a 57-59 inch. Middle paddlers use anything from a 49 to 54 inch, depending on who and where seated. Photo was taken at Eagle, AK, where we are required to briefly stop to show passports after crossing the border.

TsPaX3y.jpg
 
OK, so what am I missing here? I would think that anything you add to the inside of the canoe will only add weight and make it ride lower. If you add something on the outside that would actually lift the canoe higher in the water it will also add drag and make it even harder to paddle. My understanding is that the Northwoods design varies from the original Voyageur canoe designs because unless you literally have a ton of gear they would ride too high and be unstable. I know I'm left handed and think from the wrong side of my brain............................................
 
I think the foam block idea below the seats and under the gunwale is a good idea. For under the seats Willie’s Walmart find (3x6x9 inch minicel blocks for $3 apiece) would be hard to beat pricewise.

That would provide added buoyancy, but would still leave a ton of water to bail.

I have a couple of Northwest River Supply center flotation bags that are huge, five feet long. They are center float bags for big canoes and have three tie down lacing points spaced along the length. You would probably need to use them side-by side, but they would occlude five feet of empty hull space.

We have no use for them anymore and I’d sell them dirt cheap, but even deflated they are big and shipping to Winnipeg would be stupid pricey.
 
Unfortunately they are not so cheap in Canada. $14 each at Walmart so it may be as cheap to buy minicel from the store in Winnipeg. eack block would displace about 2 quarts of water.

The foam is to displace water so that the canoe would ride higher if swamped and make bailing easier. I am also consider a battery powered bilge pump. Our canoe is not the sleek racing machine of yknpdlr more an old van capable of holding 16 paddlers of various levels of fitness. Weighs about 500lbs.

I wonder if pool noodles would work along the gunwales?
 
Many sources in Maine to buy a 72 inch paddle. Guides often stand.

Doug might be cheaper with shipping.

Shaw and Tenney
Pole and Paddle
the guy in Ashland who is hard to get
The Bark Canoe Store( which is in Washington State)
 
Is the canoe made of wood.?It will float if it is. Unless you fill all the voids not occupied with paddlers in the canoe ( which means lots of airbags) the canoe is not going to float high. Float tanks and blocks are to prevent the craft from sinking and do not guarantee minimal water in.

Id forget the minicell blocks.

Review Archimedes principle..
 
Pool noodle would definitely work, split them in half length wise, put one about and inch bellow the underside of the gunnels(so you can put fingers in to lift the boat) and put an other row right below the first one on the entire length of the canoe....
 
One thing I have noticed with pool noodle foam is that it does not age well. It becomes crumbly and stiff with age, including (more slowly) pieces that are shielded from UV exposure.
 
I would think long and hard about Archimedes principle. Makes pool noodles seem like straws in the wind.

Archimedes principle says the weight of water ( or anything else) displaces an equal weight of water. Those pool noodles may make the craft float 5 mm higher. That pitiful amount is simply because pool noodles do not have enough volume. And it is why for situations that you want the craft to float high enough not to pin on a rock underwater.. you use float bags filled with air. Almost every area not taken up by a paddler is filled with air filled float bags.

We have two 26 + foot voyageur canoes at Winona Camps. It takes a lot to flip em and as they are wood they float. yes full of water.. It takes a big boat to do a boat over boat.. We use the camp motorboat as it has sufficient beam, and a winch.
 
The canoe is made of fibreglass. I think it has foam in bulkheads at either end to stop it sinking but like most smaller canoes it only just floats. The other problem that canotrouge spoke to is how unstable it is when full of water. Foam along the gunwales would help limit how far they would dip below the water when paddlers are trying to re enter. I realise pool noodles have only limited buoyancy, about 7.5kg per metre of noodle, so would not be the main source of flotation. The technique we are taught is for paddlers to bail from the water at first then when enough water is out to improve stability one gets in and bails from inside the canoe until it is stable enough to get more folk out of the water. This would be where an electric pump would help.
We wouldn't have the luxury of a safety boat to use in rescues.
 
Pool noodles will not provide adequate bouyancy. Outiggers with float bags like sea kayakers use for paddle float reentry would work.. The reason I keep repeating about pool noodles is that most all of the racers have them on the Kenduskeag race where there is a Grade 3 drop. The racers use the noodles to function as a splash guard to help keep deflect water away. They have some usefulness there but I have seen none help with reentry after dumping at the base of the grade 3.

Your boat is high volume. If capsize is that much of a possibility, you should think electric bilge pumps as you mentioned. Winona kids have only capsized under controlled conditions and on purpose. .

All canoes are unstable when filled with water. I only get part of my water out and use a paddle float entry method with a stirrup and a kayak pump to get the relatively small amount of water a 15 foot long 26 inch wide solo canoe can accumulate. I stand on the stirrup and have flotation from the float bag attached to the paddle ( or outrigger) behind me I can stand on the stirrup with stability and bail

You just have to think bigger. Also if you have a large crew many can stabilize the boat in the water while a few enter and bail. Its not like you put everyone in a flooded boat ( sure it will turtle again)
 
I am missing something here. How the heck do you end up with that much water in the boat? What are you planning to do with this thing?


Remember the old saying....no one ever drowned portaging a rapid.
 
How many people in the canoe? How long are you going for? How much gear will be in the canoe? And yes floatation strips all along the boat under the gunnels will help stabilize the boat when swamped. 34 feet is just over 10 meters, so you would get just around 75kg of "floatation" on each side of the boat. Minicell foam strips, 3x6x34feet would be better then the noodles, but more expensive, but would last a lot longer and I'm sure a lot more "floatation" from it to!!
 
Ill put in some math though it seems not to be registering. 75 kg of floatation is about 165 lbs floatation. A whitewater PFD provides 22 lbs of flotation. See how 7.5 PFD's help you or not. Swamp the boat and tie in the PFDs around the thwarts so they actually are attached to the canoe and just not floating free.
Admire the fact your canoe now floats a tenth of an inch higher.

I'll go get the winch.. ! LOL..!
 
I don't know what kind of capacity a battery powered bilge pump is capable of or who the intended paddlers are (kids or adults) but I'd think 15 people and 15 one gallon bailers would move a lot more water in less time. I think you'd need a pretty big battery to run a pump long enough to empty out such a large boat. The battery would also need to be water proof/leak proof and firmly attached to the boat to keep it from falling out. A normal lead acid (car) battery will leak acid when upside down or on its side.

I like the idea of under seat flotation as well as fitting some out of the way on the sides but I'd also look at how much water it will displace and how long it would take to remove that much water via bailer as a kind of cost/benefit analysis.

Alan
 
How many people in the canoe? How long are you going for? How much gear will be in the canoe? And yes floatation strips all along the boat under the gunnels will help stabilize the boat when swamped. 34 feet is just over 10 meters, so you would get just around 75kg of "floatation" on each side of the boat. Minicell foam strips, 3x6x34feet would be better then the noodles, but more expensive, but would last a lot longer and I'm sure a lot more "floatation" from it to!!

If there will be empty spaces not occupied by paddlers or gear some kind of center bag flotation would occlude the most water, and make bail or pump out easier.

With a 16 seater there could be some big voids to occlude with a smaller crew. I have paddled a Clipper Mariner with 8 people; bow man, stern man and three pairs seated side by side, and even that 22 footer would leave a lot of wide, deep space to fill if not occupied by paddlers or gear.

One very old school trick. Back in the day my father DIY’ed center floatation for our Grummans using a huge block of Styrofoam. He painted it with something (latex paint, IIRC) to prevent the awful Styrofoam squeek and to make it more durable. I’m not sure there were float bags in the 60’s, but given my modern day druthers I’d rather have bags than a giant Styrofoam fugly block.

OK, getting really off the wall. If transport space isn’t a issue, maybe a couple or four cheap plastic ice chests, with the lids taped or glued shut. Fill them with foam, empty plastic milk jugs or etc and tie/strap securely into place. Probably the least expensive solution. Camp seats or side tables when removed.

(That might be the best use for cheap, poorly insulated ice chests. I’ve upgraded ours several times and wish I’d just bought a good one to start with. I’m sure there is a cost delta formula; purchase price + years of melted ice cost + bought a better replacement cooler + bought yet another really well designed cooler = cheaper to buy a quality ice chest to start with)

OK, off the wall Part II. Minicel is pricey, especially in large/long buns. Shipping costs add considerably to that. Best deal ever on minicel was a huge box of wedge shaped chunks.

Free. From a friend in the kayak manufacturing biz that used minicel bulkheads, the wedges were the scrap leftover from cutting oval bulkheads out of minicel rectangles.

Got a kayak manufacturer in your vicinity? Methinks they just throw those minicel scraps away and they might be ideal for below inwale sponsons.
 
The canoe has over 105 cu ft of water in it. That is over 785 gallons.. As you cant get 15 into the boat at first to start bailing its going to be a bit slow. At 4 gal a minute x 15 it will take about 15 minutes to clear water. Anyone who has bailed a small swamped canoe can tell you its not efficient and rarely do you get the bailer full at the lower levels of water. So what the fudge factor is I dont know..

There are bilge pumps that move 2000 gph but those are hardwired. More modest kayak pumps move much less and are intended to be used precapsize.

Back to float bag aka whitewater floatation.. I still find it hard to capsize a big canoe. Most are meant to carry quite a load with adequate freeboard and when the number of people is too many the performance suffers before the freeboard does.

And yes I remember the days when the grummans who were at the camp we managed had some black minicell sheets about six inches wide fastened to the sides of the hull with some sort of ancient permanent glue.. They didnt do much for floatation but as the foam under the stems was rotten and disintegrating with little pellets coming out it was better than nothing.
 
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If you decide to go the air bag route, this guy is the guy to talk to, Shawn Alexander @ http://www.falllinecanoes.com Is the master of canoe floatation!!
HE makes the BEST bags ever!! Any shape, any sizes you want!!
 
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