Crooked knife making

[Boatman53]

Even though I have several crooked knives (some hoof knives) I decided to make one that suits me and the way I want it to work. I have some O1 tool steel but thought it would be good to use a file just to say I did. So this is what I'm starting with. All hopelessly dull.


Next I heated them to cherry red and let them cool slowly. I chose to start with these two. So the next step was to grind off the teeth. I used a belt sander as I find it easier to control than a grinder.



I am going to work the smaller one first. Since I wanted the blade to angle back away from me I heated the body, clamped it in a vise and hammered an angle to it. Then let it cool.



Then to put the shape to the blade. I have an anvil but this old iron had the curve I wanted plus it put an angle very end of the blade that I was looking for to twist the back of the blade up and away from the cutting edge. That was a fault I found with my first store bought knife.





I forgot to mention before the bend was made I ground the cutting edge bevel to the blade. So it now looks like this.





That's about where I am at the moment. I still need to harden and temper it. I've got a couple of chunks of wood to become a handle, just not sure which one to use yet.
Feel free to add your own crooked knife photos, I'd love to see them. They might influence the next knife.
Jim

 

[oldie moldy]

Nice work Jim! I really admire you guy's who work with steel, no skills at that myself.

I got to thinking about crooked knives over on that paddle making thread. The few times I've ever tried to use a crooked knife it was pretty hard to control. It seems that the function of the blade is just about like that of a draw knife. Of course with a draw knife you have a handle on each end which for me gives much better control.
Of course along with that control comes more bulk, "yer pays yer moneys and takes yer choice."

It will be interesting to see what you select for a handle design. Thanks for sharing!

Best Wishes, Rob

 

[Rippy]

Neat project. I'm assuming you look for older files to recycle. I understand some of the newer files are made with lesser quality steel and case hardened to save money.

Just a tip, some of these guys around here need a can of beer in the picture to keep their attention. They claim it's a size comparison but I get the feeling that some of them are comparing beer all night long.

 

[memaquay]

Ha ha, I would need some beer to get up the nerve to try that. So Boatman, I have been wanting a crooked knife for a long time, and have thought about making one, even tried once. So I have a couple of questions. How did you heat the file up? How did you grind the bevel and edge? I'm thinking I might be able to turn it into a design project for one the kids in the auto class next semester, then I wouldn't have to botch the attempt.

 

[Boatman53]

Rob that lack of control was a major factor in starting this project. In this photo I posted in the paddle thread the lower knife is an "official" crooked knife. That blade is long. Now if I was working up some birchbark canoe planking that might be just the ticket, but I really don't plan to do that. The shorter ones are much easier to control. I also found the width of the blade got in the way of some scooping action, that's also why I wanted the tip to be narrower and bent with a twist.




Yes Rippy, these are old USA Nickolson files. I must have about fifty of them. Some from my dad and uncle, both were machinists and I buy files at yard sales all the time. It was late last night when I posted and I forgot o mention a few things, like the file. So far I have used MAPP torch, a belt sander, a sharp file, a ball pein hammer, vise grips to hold the blade for heating and hammering, and a vise to hold the Sad Iron. I'm trying to keep things simple and attainable.
Beer.... Let's see I don't as a rule drink beer, I'm more of a rum man (don't hate me) all the big boaters I know have rum on doard. I'll see what I can do.
Feel free Rippy to add any of your knife making knowledge as you see fit.
Jim

 

[Boatman53]

Memaquay, I guess we were typing at the same time. Each step is not very difficult on its own. I wanted to show that can be done with simple tools. I do have thirty years of working wood and metal with my boatbuilding so I do forget some of what I do is intuitive. Don't hesitate to ask, if need be I'll stage a photo it I don't have one. This is the biggest thing I've hardened and tempered. Not the end of the world if I botch it. I have more files.
Jim

 

[memaquay]

Thanks Jim! I'm going to talk to the shop teacher today and see what he says, might get back to you with more questions later. The only part I feel confident about is the handle making.

 

[ppine]

Tell us about tempering the steel after the knife has been ground and bent.

 

[Rippy]

Feel free Rippy to add any of your knife making knowledge as you see fit.
Jim

Thanks for the friendly invite Jim but I can tell this isn't your first rodeo, so I'm going to sit back and relax and enjoy your build along with the rest of the gang. Nice grind lines. Dave

 

[Murat V]

Great stuff Boatman. The crooked knife is really an under-appreciated tool today and was once a valuable part of the canoe tripper's kit. I find it so versatile and comfortable to use, but only if it is customized to your own needs. I don't have the metalworking experience of yourself and Rippy, but made 2 of my own crooked knife blades from old files as well.

My first one was made laboriously with all hand tools after reading a similar process on a primitive survival forum (web link is now dead unfortunately). Didn't have any appropriate power tools at the time. The files was heated carefully in the fireplace, then set to cool in a can of previously collected ash. Another file was used to grind away the teeth and form a bevel. I'd work on it from time to time on a picnic table at a park when time permitted. After reheating and quenching in vegetable oil, the black scale was cleaned off and tempered in the oven until the metal turned a blueish tinge. It worked well in the end for a first attempt. The handle was a natural branch crook that felt right in my hand. Even though this blade is straight, the natural curve of the handle results in a skewed blade position when carving. I later found out that this offset position puts less strain on the wrist when working the tool. This one has a long blade but I made it as part of my attempt to make a birchbark canoe. I've used it since to carve a spuce paddle, a spruce pole and various cedar components for the canoe.

Here are some pics:

Annealed blade cooling in ash

Working away on a picnic table "workbench"

Underside of handle with chiseled slot for the tang

Whipped lashing and a birchbark sheath

Skewed angle


The other knife was also made from a file but by this time, I obtained an angle grinder to make the process faster. I wanted to have an extremely skewed finishing knife meant to really delicately carve the planking. I'd seen some of these on the web and got to handle a similar knife made by Master Birchbark craftsman Rick Nash. This time, I used the grinder to thin to create a new tang and bent it back while the metal was soft. The blades for this style of knife don't tend to have a curve at the tip. The handle was an interesting piece of olive wood from my great uncle's abandoned property. When I was exploring the land, I came across a perfect angled branch and knew right away it would be my next crooked knife handle.

My new handle

The blade and angled tang

Slot carved in handle for the tang

Finished


I had also ordered knife blade from a chap on Etsy after reading some great reviews. Orien M of OldSchoolTools. He made this blade for me from thicker steel

The handle was made from a seasoned Yellow birch remnant. It has a bit of recessed thumb area which I found to be very comfortable but of course everyone's hands are different.

This last knife is the one I usually take on trips as it works a bit better on hardwoods and the more pronounced curve is better with carving smaller stuff in camp.

If I make another one, I'll have to try your belt sander suggestion.

 

[Boatman53]

Thanks Murat. It doesn't take fancy tools to make these. I've seen some of your knives on the image search, and they are defiantly influencing this project.
When I left off the blade was curved at the tip but still flat going into the handle. As Murat stated and I found out with my other knives I have to twist my wrist too far to be comfortable for any length of time so on to the next step.
First I drilled a hole in the tang to rivet, and the very end of the tang was heated up with the torch and bent to engage the handle.



Next was to heat the area where the blade will meet the handle and put a bend. This was heated, clamped in a vise and tapped with the ball pein hammer. Now it looks like this.



Now you are all caught up with where I am on this. Maybe I can get to harden and temper it this weekend. Another feature of the file that I used was that it tapered in thickness. You can't see it in any of the photos but the blade is thinner at the tip. I like that.
Jim

 

[Canotrouge]

Good work!! I made one a long time ago, and I made one mistake, and it was to have the bevel grinder to short, I really like that last one that Murat is showing, my next one will be like that for sure!! I had ordered one from Jarrod M Stone Dahl, but when my turn came up, I couldn't ind cash and the dollar was falling quite low... still is actually... SO I'll have to make my own!!

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Here's an interesting article about the geometry, use and sharpening of crooked knives.

http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/ck.html

For those who may want to buy a crooked knife, Mora makes one that's available for around $16 US. I understand it's actually a farrier knife.

http://www.bensbackwoods.com/frosts-...-knife-180-rh/

 

[Boatman53]

Thanks Glenn, and that reminded me about this book http://www.mocotauganthebook.com . There are some beautiful old knives shown with the text.
Jim

 

[Canotrouge]

Thank you Glenn, that is great info!! And that book, boatman53 is indeed nice, it is on my book to get!!

 

[Murat V]

The oldjimbo article Glenn linked is one of the oldest on the net about crooked knives. I used at as a resource too when first researching a while back. In the end, I took the article's advice and bought a narrow bladed farrier's knife like the one it mentioned. The knife certainly was sharp, but I found the thin blade quite springy and the blade profile more conducive to gouging out large pieces of waste wood than delicate shavings. I used it to carve my son a rough toy paddle from poplar but the paddle needed to be heavily sanded smooth to remove the pot marks from carving.

In the end, I found it not very useful for larger flat carvings (like a real paddle blade or grip) but the blade could shave sufficiently when held at a weird and painful wrist angle. I think I got it for $10 at an equestrian supply store and don't feel for blowing the money on it but moving on to a proper crooked knife with thicker blade and customized handle made a world a difference between a painful tool and an enjoyable one.

 

[Hanz]

Nice work, guys. I've never used a crooked knife. I'm not a big carver - it's probably one of those "I don't know what I am missing" things.

 

[oldie moldy]

Thanks for getting the ideas flowing about crooked knives Boatman! I was at one of my favorite suppliers: Ben's Backwoods and he has some Frost brand crooked knives (even one for us lefties) I ordered one just to see, the blade is shorter than the knife I had such problems controlling, maybe it'll be better.

Thanks again!!

Rob

 

[Boatman53]

You're welcome Rob. I've been way too busy lately, blizzard, work pressures (because of lost time, see first item) etc so I haven't had time to harden the blade yet. I can however always fit in some time on wood work, usually to start and end my usual woodwork day. So I got started on the handle.
I pulled this piece of firewood out of the pile when I was stacking it the way it split is the grain I'm looking for. Also nice to have some curl and a touch of spalting.

I started with this.


Cut out a chunk.


Then trimmed it down to square the corners. Still very over size, and not cut to the sweep I'm looking for yet. But I have enough for another handle.

That's all for now. Stay warm. We had rain today on top of all the snow from last week, now it's going to get really cold. Sounds like fun.
Jim

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Dave Canterbury on the differences between the crooked knife (mocotaugan) and the hoof knife. It's in the grind profile.